apprenticeship is actually the model that a lot of education reformers like to use these days (one popular pedagogical approach is called cognitive apprenticeship)
i like the idea but i feel like its going to be even harder to provide that than a decent school aystem
― the late great, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:44 (twelve years ago) link
It sucks to teach math, chemistry, history, and I dunno Virgil to students who regard college as the means by which to acquire a piece of paper that signifies "You're okay to start your own business."
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:45 (twelve years ago) link
dude, what could possibly be wrong with a system that asks you to take the most important exams of your life just as you're discovering alcohol and sex?
well sure, growing up is hard. we segue into "real life" just as we're losing our minds hormonally, figuring out who we are and want to be, and exploring a vast and dangerous world. the fact that this is true is not, however, the fault of the educational system.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:45 (twelve years ago) link
I am seeing how students increasingly regard their education as a service commodity e.g. "I paid $600 for these credits and I better get a good grade."
happening a lot in the UK too now that students are paying the full cost of their degrees
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:46 (twelve years ago) link
oh i fuckin wish i was, iirc, discovering parental committal & possibly taco fries
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:47 (twelve years ago) link
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:45 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it might do, yes, but from their POV it might suck to have to hear about these things and be graded on your interest in them when you know your career plans don't include them
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:48 (twelve years ago) link
^ a good attitude, imo. encourages the sort of work that's likely to result in success (i.e., good grades).
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:49 (twelve years ago) link
and financial success
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:50 (twelve years ago) link
well yr self-fulfilling prophecy came true
― the late great, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:50 (twelve years ago) link
Panglossian!
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:50 (twelve years ago) link
oh yeah! We're finally seeing the results of "democratizing" the educational system. It's neither bad nor good imo. If "society" requires a college degree for most anything then we must become degree mills.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:51 (twelve years ago) link
it's pretty sad that the idea of learning for learning's sake has such little purchase right now, because that's pretty much the only "utility" of many courses, at high school and above.
then again that doesn't apply across the board, making a 15-yr-old who dislikes chemistry and knows at that point that their adult life will not involve any of it sit through lessons is just going to alienate them from the system and reinforce the idea that they're just doing it for a piece of paper.
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:52 (twelve years ago) link
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:48 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah, but if you know that your career plans do not require such things, in any way shape or form, and you are in a school that does require them, then the only real problem is that you've chosen the wrong school. i mean, basically the only thing you really need to start a business is a line of credit.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:52 (twelve years ago) link
but when the school in question is high school ... ?
― the late great, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:53 (twelve years ago) link
it's pretty sad that the idea of learning for learning's sake has such little purchase right now,
did it ever? Seriously! ILE is one of the few communities in which I've encountered people like me who used to read and write because they gave him pleasure.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:53 (twelve years ago) link
i agree with noodle vague upthread (v. beautifully put). some rough thoughts: there is this idea that logic, reasoning, critical thinking and other side effects of learning math and science will serve someone just for being those skills, directly applied to life, but i think it's more about learning how to perform these skills in a setting, i.e., what takes precedence for success is how able someone is to meet and perform the requirements necessary to gain membership in a group. sometimes those requirements are "hard" rather than "soft" or whatever but i still think this is a big reason why secondary education and "the field" (knowledge/production/market work) exhibit so many disconnects, those two cultures require two different performance profiles, with different amounts of element overlap.
i think education culture, in the u.s. at least, has many tangled and contradictory aims and claims. the impulse contenderizer is spouting above for one. the idea that pure education is about a kind of personal liberation, which needs to be majorly questioned and sorted out because it ends up being a cover for a lot of hypocrisy.
lots of x-posts of course
― desk calendar white out (Matt P), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:54 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, but if you know that your career plans do not require such things, in any way shape or form, and you are in a school that does require them, then the only real problem is that you've chosen the wrong school. i mean, basically the only thing you really need to start a business is a line of cred
The subjects I mentioned are part of most colleges' core curriculum.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:54 (twelve years ago) link
fair point, but i'm good with everybody having to learn to crawl, even if they're pretty damn sure that they have no intention of ever walking
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:55 (twelve years ago) link
it's pretty sad that the idea of learning for learning's sake has such little purchase right now
this ties in with what Alfred's saying and what i said about the different values in education systems. i definitely think that education as a value in itself is being pushed out in favour of consumerism and the needs of employers, but ironically in the UK at least we still seem pretty bad at creating an education system that's meeting the actual needs of employers
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:55 (twelve years ago) link
do u guys ever feel like with something like education that so many words have already been written about the topic that anything you had to say about it would just be a drop in the ocean?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:56 (twelve years ago) link
so the UK still produces business students who can write actual compound sentences? Wow.
― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:56 (twelve years ago) link
i definitely think that education as a value in itself is being pushed out in favour of consumerism and the needs of employers, but ironically in the UK at least we still seem pretty bad at creating an education system that's meeting the actual needs of employers
ha otm the UK's speciality really is in pitching for a compromise and ending up with the worst of both worlds
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:56 (twelve years ago) link
hey, look! matt responded to one of my posts without directly calling me a racist. red letter day...
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:57 (twelve years ago) link
'learning for learning's sake'
i mean, i dunno, does nobody else even find this a troublesome concept to begin with? learning what? decided by whom? to what end? there's more baggage there than is assumed, and i think the attitude of 'learning what someone else finds interesting for someone else's sake' probably turns a lot more off the idea of education than many other factors discussed itt
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:58 (twelve years ago) link
has anyone mentioned yet that the current US educational system is a frankenstein's monster hodgepodge of remnants from the transition between agrarian + industrialization?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:59 (twelve years ago) link
"like we're in charge of making good tacos or something."
frankly, i would have liked to have gone to taco-U... i guess that does speak to an apprenticeship-envy.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:59 (twelve years ago) link
gonna say it's more a test of yr ability/willingness to jump through hoops, useful skill for modern life imo
otms
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:59 (twelve years ago) link
so is society mayyyne xp
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 23:59 (twelve years ago) link
learning for learnings sake implies not grading
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:01 (twelve years ago) link
^^
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:02 (twelve years ago) link
i guess by learning for learning's sake we're talking about the idea that a broad base of general knowledge and skills might be important for kids developmentally. i wdn't argue that it can be done in a very ham-fisted and counterproductive fashion, but as a general idea i'm good with it. sometimes kids have to do things against their natural inclinations which are mostly eating jelly babies, watching tv and beating on weaker kids?
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:04 (twelve years ago) link
the quality of one's education is much more a function of one's attitude toward it than it having taken place in any particular scenario. there are limits to this, of course, (yes, engineers and scientists) but no, ppl do not need a college degree to be social media specialists and seo rock stars.
a degree is much more a symbol of having undergone a process than that process actually involving learning.
― mookieproof, Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:04 (twelve years ago) link
eating jelly babies, watching tv and beating on weaker kids?
see, p sure two out of these three things are valuable life experience and can lead to future success
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:05 (twelve years ago) link
also in the UK at least there is way too much emphasis on grading in situations where it doesn't matter.
obviously if you want to do brain surgery or airline piloting as an adult then some sort of certificate of competence wd be in order.
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:05 (twelve years ago) link
also one of the problems with this education system (and a lot of our discussion) is that it takes ability as a given rather than subject to growth - it confuses snapshots w/ maps
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:05 (twelve years ago) link
CA/PA
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:06 (twelve years ago) link
^ also where most of my college nights went tbf
noodle vague how can watching tv be a natural inclination when tv is made by man
― the late great, Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:08 (twelve years ago) link
so are jelly babies
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:08 (twelve years ago) link
we naturally engage with our environment, inc jelly babies
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:09 (twelve years ago) link
nah i don't really buy the "kids are savages" mentality but "kids are not the best judges of their own long-term self-interest" is pretty uncontroversial. i mean, people are not the best judges of etc. on the whole
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:10 (twelve years ago) link
ya that's a good route to what tho, elitism at best in the educational system, inc classics as a part of a vocational education
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:11 (twelve years ago) link
shit that's a rubbish post, i'll tear it apart myselg if u gimme a minute
i wd tend to argue that if at 15 you've decided you're really not interested in Chemistry that might be as much about how you've been taught and other extraneous factors as anything - the problem is still intrinsic to the educational system rather than "education" as a concept itself
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:11 (twelve years ago) link
nobody arguing against 'education' as a concept tho!
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:12 (twelve years ago) link
I don't know if education is a barrier for entry but taking all the state and national-level BS tests are...
― Waxahachie Swap (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:13 (twelve years ago) link
the education system exists within a wider social context true, so you have a point there darragh but we shd be offering opportunities and experiences to kids throughout their time in school, even if they don't take them - if they're not interested, find something interesting to pull them in! rather than just being like "okay you want to be a spot-welder well we'll just learn spot-welding and some basic literacy and numeracy from here on"
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:14 (twelve years ago) link
totally agree!
just not- well you've tried this and hate it and aren't any good at it but it's curricular and you've to do it, even at a less-than-useless level, for another four years
whether that's spot-welding or maths
― truth fromgbs (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:16 (twelve years ago) link
i come across a lot of poor practice that i won't elaborate on in a public forum but teachers and students are only human i guess
― Kony Montana: "Say hello to my invisible friend" (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:18 (twelve years ago) link
what you guys think of montessori-style?
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 15 March 2012 00:20 (twelve years ago) link