iatee, the fact that avent has written something elsewhere that shows he knows better doesn't mean that the op-ed in the times, on its own, isn't really goofy nonetheless.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:05 (twelve years ago) link
every single other thing he has ever written doesn't fit with the way that you are misreading one sentence. he doesn't 'know better', he has an extremely consistent pov that has spanned years of published work.
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:07 (twelve years ago) link
the guy who's been writing about densitifaction for years isn't gonna accidentally say 'phoenix is awesome' in the nyt
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:08 (twelve years ago) link
i mean you can take cabs in the suburbs too, it is just far less common a behavior than it is in NYC
I'm just a spectator in the larger argument but on this topic, I think it's like this? Because more people want a thing or service, let's say grocery delivery, a provider of that service can make their margins based on volume rather than pricing structure? Like if only one person in my business area wants grocery delivery, I might have to charge them $100 for that. But if 20 people want it, the price comes down to $5 and suddenly my potential customer base explodes because lots of people are willing to pay $5 when they couldn't have paid $100. So in cities, where there are lots of potential customers, the hypothetical service can be a lot cheaper and therefore a valid business model.
Sorry for the over-explaining. :(
― drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:10 (twelve years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CFibAP5IBQ
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:10 (twelve years ago) link
but I don't think, when you frame it like that, anyone would believe that's a great way to create jobs.
I didn't mean to imply otherwise! But I am sure some people who believe that everyone deserves a 50s-style ranch home, a chicken in every pot, and a front yard for kids to play in would say it's good.
Also, proud to own American cars. My wife has two Cadillacs she drives..
― mh, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
My wife has two Cadillacs she drives..
Now you guys are just trying to make iatee explode with rage, right?
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
what, by sarcastically quoting Mitt Romney? I think he's probably immune to that by now.
― mh, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
Those foreign cars are so small, right? You do need two -- one for each foot.
(apols. Henny Youngman)
― s.clover, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:27 (twelve years ago) link
I knew it was sarcastic, but didn't know it was Mittens. Make sense though.
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
i think that part of the reason that this thread seems less like a debate and more like a series of polemics is that the two thought states seem to be "cities are great, anything else has no redeeming qualities" vs. "hey cities are cool but suburbs and rural and pretty much wherever peeps choose to live can have positives aspects as well" vs. some imaginary city hating strawman so we dont really discuss anything but mostly just make cheap points off of each other.
i mean yeah hi dere internet and all but i know thats why i only stop in here once every few months and then get frustrated and bail
― Thu'um gang (jjjusten), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:49 (twelve years ago) link
yeah I don't send a lot of time talking about how much fun cities are, I mostly focus on how they're a better and more productive use of resources. I'm sure millions of americans love their lil suburb. we just shouldn't have a legal and policy structure that subsidizies them.
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:55 (twelve years ago) link
see right there is the self-important tone i have come to expect from this thread
― Thu'um gang (jjjusten), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:56 (twelve years ago) link
people are political about political issue shockah
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 20:58 (twelve years ago) link
wellll theres a difference between political and unwilling to entertain the possibility that you are wrong about anything but well wait i guess that depends on how you define political so
― Thu'um gang (jjjusten), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:01 (twelve years ago) link
well I'm not really concerned about being wrong about 'is sprawl bad for the environment'
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
It's weird to me to think of urban zoning restrictions as a way to subsidize suburbs. I don't think people who live in suburbs really care either way about zoning in cities. It's the people living in cities who support these zoning restrictions, largely I think because of NIMBY-ism and misguided fear of change. Cities already seem dense enough to most people, so the thought of additional density tends to be unpopular. People only think of the negative side-effects: congestion, noise, pollution, strain on infrastructure, etc. People don't usually think about the cool new businesses and restaurants that might be able to thrive in their neighborhood if it got a bit denser.
― o. nate, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
john how long have you been on ilx, you have to realize that acting super sensitive and pouty when iatee is impolitic abt his opinions just makes everyone pile on right
― max, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:04 (twelve years ago) link
y/n: suburbs make people pouty
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:06 (twelve years ago) link
all the recent stuff abt zoning aside the big argument here is between people who think that increasing density leads to vastly more efficient and sustainable use of resources and people who get hurt when that's said in a zingy way
― max, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:07 (twelve years ago) link
but this thread doesn't even read like the suburb defenders are disagreeing wrt denisty being more efficient and sustainable
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:08 (twelve years ago) link
like jjusten say's its just zings circling around each other at this point
Yeah I'm not being sensitive or pouty dude, I am suggesting that terrible argumentation and logic is pretty transparent when it's repeated 8 million times over in a thread.
― Thu'um gang (jjjusten), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:09 (twelve years ago) link
I am in favor of increasing urban dentistry
― flagp∞st (dayo), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:09 (twelve years ago) link
well lets clear some stuff up
― max, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:09 (twelve years ago) link
people who think that increasing density leads to vastly more efficient and sustainable use of resources
Regardless of zings, this hasn't really proved true over the course of history.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:10 (twelve years ago) link
the problem isn't that iatee is wrong, its more that he goes about getting his point across in a really condescending way sometimes and i think that gets peoples dander up and they want to argue with him just because. i feel like at least 90% of the people itt agree that density is probably the most efficient and sustainable way forward, its more just arguing wrt to getting there.
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:11 (twelve years ago) link
why do you even need to argue with me if you agree with me?
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:12 (twelve years ago) link
Same reason I used to tutor people in formal logic I guess
― Thu'um gang (jjjusten), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:13 (twelve years ago) link
for the record, i'm not arguing with you right now, i'm just pointing out where the shitstorms sort of start to spiral out of control. we can agree with your main thesis, but disagree with your supporting points.
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:13 (twelve years ago) link
voluntary human extinction is the only way
― mh, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:13 (twelve years ago) link
w/r/t subsidization/zoning upthread -- The zoning stuff is really a separate discussion I think that has nothing to do with the suburbs and nothing to do with disputes over higher density. The subsidization of suburbs was a much more direct thing over a long span of time. Mainly it came with homeownership incentives and various construction and tax incentives etc. But people didn't move to the suburbs because they were subsidized! The suburbs were subsidized because the people moving there were an important political force that politicians wanted to cultivate. The thing is really that suburbanization as a trend mainly reversed [or at least transformed] by the late 80s at the latest (with certain sprawl-exceptions in the sunbelt, which was a sort of different thing, and also has now collapsed). So the arguments about the problems with suburbanization all actually are sort of inescapable now, and I don't think there's even real disagreement about them?
― s.clover, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:15 (twelve years ago) link
i think some people do disagree with me about the new hampshire plan
― max, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:17 (twelve years ago) link
― mh, Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:13 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
that or population control, yeah.
― desk calendar white out (Matt P), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:18 (twelve years ago) link
max: in new hampshire will all our food be grown on rooftop gardens or something? or will ppl have to commute to ohio or whatever to raise cows?
― s.clover, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:24 (twelve years ago) link
new hampshire is surrounded by amazing fertile land! and anyway were talking brooklyn density in NH, so theres plenty of room for community gardens, parks, even rooftop gardens
and there will be no cows in the united states of new hampshire. if there are they will be very expensive.
― max, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:25 (twelve years ago) link
also new hampshire winters are kinda brutal. maybe we can build a dome over it or something?
no cows sounds like a dealbreaker, tbh.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:27 (twelve years ago) link
unless you plan on making all yr united states of new hampshire food in labs, there is no way you're going to have enough rooftop gardens to grow even enough grain for yr country
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:28 (twelve years ago) link
america doesn't have or need very many farmers ftr
― iatee, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:29 (twelve years ago) link
we got really really good at making food a long time ago
well, to be honest, it doesnt actually have to be *in* NH, just a space the size of NH. we can vote on where the city limits will be.
― max, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:29 (twelve years ago) link
no you misunderstand jon -- most of the food will come in from the farmland that rings new hampshire, where all the teenagers will be sent to farm
as for the cows, unfortunately, they are also a dealbreaker in terms of the continued survival of human life on this planet
― max, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:30 (twelve years ago) link
xpost - ok, i see now
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:33 (twelve years ago) link
That's why I'm eating them as fast as I can.
― s.clover, Wednesday, 14 March 2012 21:34 (twelve years ago) link
beef is kind of the biggest problem in the farming chain, yes
― mh, Thursday, 15 March 2012 13:39 (twelve years ago) link
beef is a big problem in hip-hop I'll grant.
― s.clover, Thursday, 15 March 2012 16:09 (twelve years ago) link
hardsonned beef is more sustainable
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Thursday, 15 March 2012 16:22 (twelve years ago) link
re: tearing down brownstones, i just read this:
http://seattletransitblog.com/2012/03/14/we-need-old-buildings/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+seattletransitblog%2Frss+%28Seattle+Transit+Blog%29
― The Reverend, Thursday, 15 March 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link
I don't know that much about seattle's downtown and I imagine I'd prob agree w/ that author's definition of 'old' and 'heritage' but at the same time it doesn't escape the problem that you have to draw a fairly arbitrary line in the sand somewhere with those words.
― iatee, Thursday, 15 March 2012 18:24 (twelve years ago) link