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feel like ally went on an otm/hilarious rant about this in some ilnfl thread of yore.

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

I honestly dont see a lot of fans at game wearing that much pink bullshit tbh, Raider fans are pretty tribal over the team colors, for the most part

Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

like, it just is weird. the whole point of sports fandom is an irrational feeling that you represent the team/are being represented by the team. if you're wearing a pink jersey you're just representing a very rigid notion of femininity?

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:17 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

YES! Also what Laurel said otm.

re: i don't have contempt for pink in general. (i have a pink puffy winter coat! it's v kelly kapoor.) i think it's hard to argue against the patronizing nature of pink fan gear marketed to women, though.

Pink is my favorite color. Looking around my desk just now I saw seven or eight pink things. Not liking those shirts has nothing to do with not liking pink in general.

Who is kelly kapoor?

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's only masculine coded in the sense of the dominance of the "male gaze" - there are male and female coded versions of "looking cool"

― sarahell, Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:15 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

this is true, but masculine cool tends to exaggerate traditionally masculine-coded attributes. feminine cool tends to minimize the traditionally feminine. i.e., most female coded version of looking cool = subtle and not-so-subtle masculinization. implies that the traditionally feminine isn't cool enough to be cool.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha kelly kapoor is the mindy kaling character on the office

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

and yeah I was just talking about off the shoulder fitted jerseys & blinged out stuff

Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

see that's what I thought! SF Giants fans seem less tribal (both of these assumptions are based solely on seeing people going to/from games walking down the street/on public transit), but I've never seen pink shit on them either.

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

also a better example of refiguring masculine cool in sports gear is when ally contemplated belting a huge giants jersey she owned and wearing it as a dress. in some ilnfl thread of yore.

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am not a crazed ally stalker i promise; i just miss her

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp I think the subtext is that they assume you don't care about the team.

― drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:18 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

okay, yeah, it puts being a "girl" over being a fan. makes sense.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

x-post I hope she did that.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp Yes.

drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

also is there anything cool about a dude wearing a football jersey? because i live in buffalo i often see men wearing them like, out to dinner on a tuesday night and it's always like, really? i don't think cool is partic important to those guys.

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think the subtext is even worse, because if the woman doesn't care about the team, why is she wearing said item of clothing? Presumably to appeal to a guy. Which is gross in more ways than one: 1. that she isn't appealing enough as herself that she needs to additionally brand herself; 2. the pigeonholing that we've previously discussed

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

but you care about yr man who cares about the team!

That's totally how I see it. Cringeworthy.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

i don't think cool is partic important to those guys.

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:24 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

you'd be surprised. cool is v important to guys, and we have LOTS of different ways of constructing it. to many guys, a sports jersey is the height of sartorial coolness.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

omg i am not five! i guess i am objecting to the word "cool" but yes, of course wearing a football jersey is a performance of a certain kind of masculinity. i think the guys i am talking about would take pride in their "uncoolness" where "coolness" is read as effeminate.

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

but please, explain to me more about guys.

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

football players in jerseys:yes
dudes in throwbacks: yes, kinda
in public or at a bar it's almost a signpost "i will be shitty drunk & shouting later, fyi"

I dont think it's as dorkville as some do, but I like seeing team loyalty anyway

Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah now i feel mean to fellow buffalonians. i say these things affectionately, except for the part about thinking dressing well is kind of gay.

horseshoe, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol @ omg I am not five!

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

i guess part of my questioning on the pink stuff is this: i see something very interesting and potentially positive in the "culture of girly, glittery pinkness" that seems to have become this huge thing over the last, what, 15 years or so? among other things, it strikes me as an aggressive statement of pride in femininity.

like: "FUCK YOU, i am a GIRL and i can wear whatever the FUCK i want! you don't like pink glittery shit? well FUCK YOU, i LOVE pink glittery shit, and i am going to make my whole fucking life pink and glittery because i am a GIRL and this is what we do. i am PROUD to be a girl, to be "girly", and FUCK YOU if you don't like it."

it seems super tribal to me, and kind of badass. i get that it's also consenting to be defined by an infantilizing and potentially toxic stereotype, but that tension is fascinating in itself. how do you define female culture without being defined by patriarchal expectations? you're either endorsing them (yay, girly shit!) or engaging in something like misogyny (boo, girly shit!).

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think the guys i am talking about would take pride in their "uncoolness" where "coolness" is read as effeminate.

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:30 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

okay, but masculine "pride in uncoolness" is just another kind of coolness. it's like hipsters sneering at hipsters.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

i guess you could read it that way, as something coming out of the babydoll dresses of RiotGrrl, maybe?

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

or ugh I hate pink

Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

like: "FUCK YOU, i am a GIRL and i can wear whatever the FUCK i want! you don't like pink glittery shit? well FUCK YOU, i LOVE pink glittery shit, and i am going to make my whole fucking life pink and glittery because i am a GIRL and this is what we do. i am PROUD to be a girl, to be "girly", and FUCK YOU if you don't like it."

Listen, I did this. I did this when I was 18 and I had blue hair and wore steel-toe docs with my baby pink mini skirt. I reclaimed it and wore the shit out of pink. That's not what's going on here. Trust me.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay, but masculine "pride in uncoolness" is just another kind of coolness. it's like hipsters sneering at hipsters.

hahaha! i know so many guys that do this, but i don't think it's exclusive to guys.

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

super tribal to me, and kind of badass

It can be but not in the way the majority of the women buying and wearing pin sports stuff are doing so. It's just not. Sorry.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

there are intended uses, and oppositional/ironic/whatever uses to consumer goods. I am really reticent to say that every female who wears these pink sports things or glittery pink stuff is doing so with the same frame of mind/intention.

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

but that brings us back to post-structuralism and critiques of Althusser

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 19:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

not

the late great, Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

^^ mistake post

the late great, Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

derrida!

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

/sigh

Also unknown as Zora (Surfing At Work), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, i think part of the difference in this discussion is that, as a guy, i'm loath to criticize "girly" type stuff. i figure it just isn't my place. guys going "gross, girl shit!" is nagl. but women have no reason to hold back.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

'Cause you're not entitled to an aesthetic opinion?

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

so did anyone see the daily show bit with Samantha B earlier this week

i love pinfold cricket (gbx), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's the girl in 'girly type stuff' at which I take offense. If you're 13 and going through a pubescent pink and sparkles phase I may roll my eyes and say nothing but if you're 26 and still playing the girl my response will be less forgiving. I feel the same way about guys. I don't want to derail this from issues of gender but there are a lot of hang-ups we seem to have about being men and women and aging which I find foolish.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'd be up to discuss gender and aging

sarahell, Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

when you're old men's balls get soft turn into mush
science

dream words & nightmare paragraphs from a red factory in a dead town (Abbbottt), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

There's a difference between girl shit and girl shit conforming to a toxic stereotype. I like pink, I like sparkles, I loathe the hegemony of disney princess pink sparkles, bows, ruffles and anything that elevates prettiness to basically being the only valuable quality a female person can have.

Also unknown as Zora (Surfing At Work), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

xxpost gbx yeah I saw it last night. It felt kinda on the nose for me. I dunno. Kristen Schaal's stuff was always pretty on point, but somehow this Bee thing just did not sit right with me at all.

Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

'Cause you're not entitled to an aesthetic opinion?

― le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:34 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

no, because aesthetics are inseparable from the construction of gender, and the masculine dismissal of traditionally feminine things doesn't sit well with me at this point in the development of our thinking abt this kind of stuff. too tied to a long and ugly history of the demeaning of the feminine.

separating the feminine from the childlike does help, but i'm not sure that can be done as clearly as it might seem.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah but erica isn't saying "gross, girl shit!", i think she's saying "gross, girls wearing pink/glittery/"raunchy" sports gear to please their men!" or IOW it's cool to wear what you like if you like it, but to wear it bc it pleases men is NAGL. xps to contenderizer

just1n3, Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, it's cool for erica (?) to take it however. i was mostly addressing my own reticence to condemn it as a man.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

like (and not to open a can of worms) i think "feminism" should mean different things to men than it does to women. a perspective that would be feminist coming from a woman is not necessarily feminist coming from a man, and vice-versa.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm sure it does not escape the marketing people that large gatherings of men and women are converging before the game to drink/socialize so in their minds lllllllllllladies will want to be looking as blingy and boobalicious as possible, because, youknow, BOYS!

Janet Snakehole (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think if you make something in a "coded" color, even if you're largely inventing/reinventing the coding by doing so, you can sell twice as many of them once you've convinced oppositionally coded groups that they have to have one or the other.

drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

Which is really my yuck factor on this stuff. Also that I am more man-shaped where shirts are concerned and sexified ones are useless to me.

drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

Contenderizer - I'm the Erica referred to above. Just FYI.

wolf kabob (ENBB), Thursday, 16 February 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink


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