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oh sorry I forgot we're not allowed thread derails on ILX

i feel like that shit must just not sell to raiders fans. the whole point of being a raiders fan is looking cool y/n?

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:10 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you and i, i think, have different definitions of the word "cool"

I'd go for boobalicious and team-colored though. It's the pink stuff, that's like, wtf?

the whole point of being a raiders fan is looking cool y/n?

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:10 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

sure, but "looking cool" is masculine coded, almost without exception. in that sense, pink raiders shit seems kind of awesome.

it's only masculine coded in the sense of the dominance of the "male gaze" - there are male and female coded versions of "looking cool"

you and i, i think, have different definitions of the word "cool"

― max, Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:13 PM (28 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha cool in a mad max-y apocalyptic crazy future pirate way

contenderizer i recognize what you're talking about. i don't have contempt for pink in general. (i have a pink puffy winter coat! it's v kelly kapoor.) i think it's hard to argue against the patronizing nature of pink fan gear marketed to women, though.

but yeah, Raiders fan wear for women looks like it plays to a bad stereotype but the amount of women I see wearing that stuff to games, it's a very weird chicken/egg situation imo

(I didnt want to get in trouble for raider-talk, I was just trying to cover my ass re derail comment, lol)

re: the shirt

you could call it a feminine violation of cool/tough/dudely raiders-ness just as easily as an ostraciziation of women from the team. but yeah, i get horseshoe's point.

like, it just is weird. the whole point of sports fandom is an irrational feeling that you represent the team/are being represented by the team. if you're wearing a pink jersey you're just representing a very rigid notion of femininity?

Veg, are the women wearing the pink shirts, or just blingee silver & black boob-accentuating stuff?

xp I think the subtext is that they assume you don't care about the team.

totes

that is a better way of saying why it's annoying, Laurel, thank you

but you care about yr man who cares about the team!

feel like ally went on an otm/hilarious rant about this in some ilnfl thread of yore.

I honestly dont see a lot of fans at game wearing that much pink bullshit tbh, Raider fans are pretty tribal over the team colors, for the most part

like, it just is weird. the whole point of sports fandom is an irrational feeling that you represent the team/are being represented by the team. if you're wearing a pink jersey you're just representing a very rigid notion of femininity?

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:17 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

YES! Also what Laurel said otm.

re: i don't have contempt for pink in general. (i have a pink puffy winter coat! it's v kelly kapoor.) i think it's hard to argue against the patronizing nature of pink fan gear marketed to women, though.

Pink is my favorite color. Looking around my desk just now I saw seven or eight pink things. Not liking those shirts has nothing to do with not liking pink in general.

Who is kelly kapoor?

it's only masculine coded in the sense of the dominance of the "male gaze" - there are male and female coded versions of "looking cool"

― sarahell, Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:15 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

this is true, but masculine cool tends to exaggerate traditionally masculine-coded attributes. feminine cool tends to minimize the traditionally feminine. i.e., most female coded version of looking cool = subtle and not-so-subtle masculinization. implies that the traditionally feminine isn't cool enough to be cool.

haha kelly kapoor is the mindy kaling character on the office

and yeah I was just talking about off the shoulder fitted jerseys & blinged out stuff

see that's what I thought! SF Giants fans seem less tribal (both of these assumptions are based solely on seeing people going to/from games walking down the street/on public transit), but I've never seen pink shit on them either.

also a better example of refiguring masculine cool in sports gear is when ally contemplated belting a huge giants jersey she owned and wearing it as a dress. in some ilnfl thread of yore.

i am not a crazed ally stalker i promise; i just miss her

xp I think the subtext is that they assume you don't care about the team.

― drawn to them like a moth toward a spanakopita (Laurel), Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:18 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

okay, yeah, it puts being a "girl" over being a fan. makes sense.

x-post I hope she did that.

xp Yes.

also is there anything cool about a dude wearing a football jersey? because i live in buffalo i often see men wearing them like, out to dinner on a tuesday night and it's always like, really? i don't think cool is partic important to those guys.

i think the subtext is even worse, because if the woman doesn't care about the team, why is she wearing said item of clothing? Presumably to appeal to a guy. Which is gross in more ways than one: 1. that she isn't appealing enough as herself that she needs to additionally brand herself; 2. the pigeonholing that we've previously discussed

but you care about yr man who cares about the team!

That's totally how I see it. Cringeworthy.

i don't think cool is partic important to those guys.

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:24 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

you'd be surprised. cool is v important to guys, and we have LOTS of different ways of constructing it. to many guys, a sports jersey is the height of sartorial coolness.

omg i am not five! i guess i am objecting to the word "cool" but yes, of course wearing a football jersey is a performance of a certain kind of masculinity. i think the guys i am talking about would take pride in their "uncoolness" where "coolness" is read as effeminate.

but please, explain to me more about guys.

football players in jerseys:yes
dudes in throwbacks: yes, kinda
in public or at a bar it's almost a signpost "i will be shitty drunk & shouting later, fyi"

I dont think it's as dorkville as some do, but I like seeing team loyalty anyway

yeah now i feel mean to fellow buffalonians. i say these things affectionately, except for the part about thinking dressing well is kind of gay.

lol @ omg I am not five!

i guess part of my questioning on the pink stuff is this: i see something very interesting and potentially positive in the "culture of girly, glittery pinkness" that seems to have become this huge thing over the last, what, 15 years or so? among other things, it strikes me as an aggressive statement of pride in femininity.

like: "FUCK YOU, i am a GIRL and i can wear whatever the FUCK i want! you don't like pink glittery shit? well FUCK YOU, i LOVE pink glittery shit, and i am going to make my whole fucking life pink and glittery because i am a GIRL and this is what we do. i am PROUD to be a girl, to be "girly", and FUCK YOU if you don't like it."

it seems super tribal to me, and kind of badass. i get that it's also consenting to be defined by an infantilizing and potentially toxic stereotype, but that tension is fascinating in itself. how do you define female culture without being defined by patriarchal expectations? you're either endorsing them (yay, girly shit!) or engaging in something like misogyny (boo, girly shit!).

i think the guys i am talking about would take pride in their "uncoolness" where "coolness" is read as effeminate.

― horseshoe, Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:30 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

okay, but masculine "pride in uncoolness" is just another kind of coolness. it's like hipsters sneering at hipsters.

i guess you could read it that way, as something coming out of the babydoll dresses of RiotGrrl, maybe?

or ugh I hate pink

like: "FUCK YOU, i am a GIRL and i can wear whatever the FUCK i want! you don't like pink glittery shit? well FUCK YOU, i LOVE pink glittery shit, and i am going to make my whole fucking life pink and glittery because i am a GIRL and this is what we do. i am PROUD to be a girl, to be "girly", and FUCK YOU if you don't like it."

Listen, I did this. I did this when I was 18 and I had blue hair and wore steel-toe docs with my baby pink mini skirt. I reclaimed it and wore the shit out of pink. That's not what's going on here. Trust me.

okay, but masculine "pride in uncoolness" is just another kind of coolness. it's like hipsters sneering at hipsters.

hahaha! i know so many guys that do this, but i don't think it's exclusive to guys.

super tribal to me, and kind of badass

It can be but not in the way the majority of the women buying and wearing pin sports stuff are doing so. It's just not. Sorry.

there are intended uses, and oppositional/ironic/whatever uses to consumer goods. I am really reticent to say that every female who wears these pink sports things or glittery pink stuff is doing so with the same frame of mind/intention.

but that brings us back to post-structuralism and critiques of Althusser

not

^^ mistake post

derrida!

/sigh

yeah, i think part of the difference in this discussion is that, as a guy, i'm loath to criticize "girly" type stuff. i figure it just isn't my place. guys going "gross, girl shit!" is nagl. but women have no reason to hold back.

'Cause you're not entitled to an aesthetic opinion?