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so if the transwoman/girl wants to transition once she's considered old enough to "know" "herself" (wtf here, btw), she won't have to fight with physically male characteristics like facial hair, a lower voice, physical size, etc. If she WANTS to allow her body to do what it chemically wants to do later, she can always go through puberty later, too. It doesn't take that away, it's just a delaying tactic.

Second, WHY SHOULD WHAT HER BODY "WANTS" BE MORE "NATURAL" FOR HER?

― one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:31 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

well, this sort of elides the question of self-determination as relates to age, right? we don't allow those below a certain age to "own" themselves. they're considered the property of others, and that's part of the grounds on which we enforce (for instance) laws against pederasty. those below a certain age aren't considered capable of making the relevant decisions for themselves. i mean, i'd side with the kid, myself, but i can see why the issue would get complex fast if the parents opposed the administration of the drug.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

Wtf shakey, do you say when your loved one needs medical care, "I'm deeply suspicious of this medical/pharmaceutical intervention into my loved one's well being. I'm going to need to think about it."?

um... yes? having worked with medical care providers and the pharm industry let me tell you there is a lot of scary shit/questionable motives out there.

I hadn't really thought about puberty inhibitors much before, would need to look into it.

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp Yes but it's the only window available to make this decision, before full-blown physical development of secondary sex characteristics. So maybe our culture of invalidating the agency of young people will also have to readjust?

one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

^ yeah, i'm cool with that. dreading the inevitable "preteen girls gone wild" vids though.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

can't find much about their long-term efficacy and safety, dunno how much googling and paper-reading I wanna do on this subject atm

xp

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay, now THAT was trolling. sorry :/

in general, i think we should be more open to the idea that older adolescents might have some idea of what they want in life.

xp

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

Really, in keeping with plax's bit from before, maybe a preferable world would be one in which a person's physical body DIDN'T inhibit them from claiming a different set of behaviors, performances, whatever, of gender, I don't really have the language to properly put this in academic terms, but we don't live there yet. Unfortunately.

It feels like small problem-wrangling again, but in the meantime people are having lives, having crisis moments and not being helped, not seeing solutions or being flatly told there ARE no solutions, and these are people's LIVES we're messing with.

one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think the question of whether the average 11/12 year-old should be given the right and power to delay his/her own puberty is at least worthy of a debate and not dismissive comments as though it were illiberal to raise an eyebrow.

happiness is the new productivity (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

^ yeah, i'm cool with that. dreading the inevitable "preteen girls gone wild" vids though

Why do you even think this would come up in any way? It feels like you're conflating gender and sex?

one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

This extremely effeminate (he wore dressed his whole life), privileged homosexual is known as the grandfather of Europe (at least to Roman Catholic royalty) since he did his dyanstic job and married twice and begat appropriately. He also won the battle of Cassel in 1677 yet was once called 'one of the silliest women in France'.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

Er, dresses

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'll just come out and say there are all kinds of things I intend to deny my 11/12 yo when she reaches that age, and serious body modification is going to be one of them, to say nothing of relatively new hormone treatments promoted by the pharmaceutical industry.

xp

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Saying that someone is capable of knowing whether their private, mental self is "male" or "female" or neither, or something else, has absolutely 0% to do with their availability or readiness for sex.

one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hurting, if you felt that strongly at 12 that you didn't want to turn into a man and I were your father, my sympathy would be entirely with you. I agree that 11/12 isn't adult nor think it should be but, man, if you fuck this up as a dad, your whole relationship is probably screwed.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

Well, Shakey, hopefully your 12 year old will never be in this particular very difficult position and you can continue to be reductive about gender on the internet.

one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

Why do you even think this would come up in any way? It feels like you're conflating gender and sex?

― one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:48 PM (9 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol nonononononono. with that regrettable "girls gone wild joke", i was trying to point out that if we grant what we now consider "kids" more agency over their lives, then there will be scumbags out there willing to exploit it

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

My trans friend knew she was meant to be a woman when she was quite young.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

wait how am I being reductive

xp

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

if it turns out she wants to be trans she can wait to make that decision imho. average 12yo is not a very rational actor.

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think the question of whether the average 11/12 year-old should be given the right and power to delay his/her own puberty is at least worthy of a debate and not dismissive comments as though it were illiberal to raise an eyebrow.

― happiness is the new productivity (Hurting 2), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:48 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

^ see, i agree with this, too. shit is complicated, really complicated.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

And I'm saying that you're making a big leap that positions gender and sexual er maturity/readiness/something close to each other as related things, but they're not, so this should not even be a component.

one little aioli (Laurel), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

if it turns out she wants to be trans

max, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be clear my objection is not to kids figuring out their gender identity, it's to their confusion being exploited and catered to by total evil companies who do not have their health or best interest in mind.

xp

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

if it turns out she wants to be trans

I have a daughter...? I don't get what you're getting at.

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean I wouldn't let a 12yo get a boob job either, you know?

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

to be clear my objection is not to kids figuring out their gender identity, it's to their confusion being exploited and catered to by total evil companies who do not have their health or best interest in mind.

shakey dont you see that this happens already regardless? its just that instead of the pharma industry its the entertainment/fashion/education/church/friends/life industry

max, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol this thread

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

well duh. it's my job as a parent to help her navigate that stuff.

xp

max buzzword (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

these were on the table next to my laptop

judith, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 22:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

shakey dont you see that this happens already regardless? its just that instead of the pharma industry its the entertainment/fashion/education/church/friends/life industry

Sure, but Big Pharm can cause chemical imbalances that make dealing with education/church/friends/life worse.

Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

man, this thread

plee help i am lookin for (crüt), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

And I'm saying that you're making a big leap that positions gender and sexual er maturity/readiness/something close to each other as related things, but they're not, so this should not even be a component.

oh, i see where yr coming from now. legally, like i said before, this case hinges on the sorts of decisions that children are legally permitted to take ultimate responsibility for and authority over. at present, in most western societies, this = "none". age-designated "children" are not legally responsible for themselves or their decisions. they have no authority to enforce their own will. this principle is what allows parents and the state to make decisions for and to "protect" children. it is what allows us to forbid sexual relations between children and adults.

sure, we could undo the special legal status of children if we want, either in this one particular case or in a more general sense. it's an interesting suggestion, but i do think there are risks involved and that they aren't trivial.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol judith

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol this thread

― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 2:59 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

man, this thread

― plee help i am lookin for (crüt), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:01 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark

yeah, who knew?

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

more like woman, this thread

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

also yeah, i've been reading a lot of deleuze lately and i think that way of thinking is pretty crucial for me at this point. i think "gender is a social construct" has been drained of a lot of its productivity. reading gender trouble was p crucial for me too but judith butler has herself gone beyond this way of thinking. her recent writing about tahrir square about spaces of appearance, the requirements of bodies. i think its important to understand that the social writing of bodies rewrites bodies themselves. a more radical reading of "one is not born a woman."

judith, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

gender and sexuality need to be destroyed.

asexuality is the future.

Banaka™ (banaka), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

feel compelled to post itt but I'm not sure I can be more explicit than I was before tbh

that said: "there's a clear, scientifically established connection between testosterone and competitive behavior in males" demands citation

i love pinfold cricket (gbx), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

this case hinges on the sorts of decisions that children are legally permitted to take ultimate responsibility for and authority over. at present, in most western societies, this = "none"

this hasn't been true for the last 10 to 20 years btw, US and UK laws to my knowledge have enshrined certain rights for children in relation to for example family law

dayove cool (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

how come nobody ever asks, is it deterwomened? think about it

― still driving steen, banning deez, gettin my dick xhuxked (Curt1s Stephens), Sunday, April 4, 2010 4:39 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

I LOVE GENITAL GINGERBREADS

Also unknown as Zora (Surfing At Work), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

well, here's a general overview type thing that touches on the subject in a number of ways: http://www.shoreline.edu/psparks/researchnotes/articles/testosteroneaggression.pdf

also, for the sake of o_O the study of a very dubious study as coughed up by the internet: http://www.news-medical.net/news/20110311/Testosterone-associated-with-dominant-behavior-and-competitive-success-in-attracting-women.aspx

Findings from a recent study at Wayne State University give a clearer understanding of the links between testosterone and human mating behavior, and how testosterone is associated with dominance and competitive success when men battle for the attention of an attractive woman.

The study engaged pairs of men in a seven-minute videotaped competition for the attention of an attractive female undergraduate. Pre-competition testosterone levels were positively associated with men's dominance behaviors in the mate competition-including how assertive they were and how much they "took control" of the conversation-and with how much the woman indicated that she "clicked" with each of the men.

all apologies for the way that study was set up and described ("an attractive woman" ffs), but the observations and conclusions seem potentially valid nonetheless.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

the social writing of bodies rewrites bodies themselves.

i think this is an important idea to take into consideration w/r/t the genetic basis of gender(or even any social thing). inasmuch as our bodies are sensory processing machines with real physical networks in our brain that govern how we 'think', genetics certainly had a role in the initial wiring of these structures. but then stuff like neuroplasticity goes and shows us that we can actually change the way we think; blurring the lines between nature and nurture even further

radiant silverfish (diamonddave85), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

that xpost was for gbx

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do all transgendered people "know" from an early age though? I mean there have been a lot of challenges to that narrative as it pertains to homosexuality ("I always knew"). My mother has a friend who became a woman in his 40s after having a family -- I have no idea whether she always "knew." I worked with her one summer while she still held herself out as a man and there was nothing that would have clued me in. I'm sure she experienced at very least confusion but I wonder if she would have been confident enough at 11 -- in a more accepting society -- to make life-altering choices, even ones that just delay the decision.

happiness is the new productivity (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

this hasn't been true for the last 10 to 20 years btw, US and UK laws to my knowledge have enshrined certain rights for children in relation to for example family law

― dayove cool (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:22 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

okay, good point. i knew i was kind of overstating things there. but "rights" for children does not necessarily = legal responsibility for self and/or authority over one's life, right? can i ask what kind of rights you mean and how they apply here? assume you're not talking about emancipated minors and so forth.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

BTW in re testosterone studies, just googling around a little I notice that even the way "aggression" gets defined is problematic. E.g. one of the "refuting" studies defined it as "risky and egocentric behavior" and what "disproved" the link was that testosterone seemed to lead to more "fair" negotiations. So everything is already colored by this idea that "male aggression" and "competition" is synonymous with acting like Michael Douglas in Wall Street.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm

happiness is the new productivity (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

So everything is already colored by this idea that "male aggression" and "competition" is synonymous with acting like Michael Douglas in Wall Street.

well, or that one study, anyway. we do have to define these things somehow...

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

thx con I'll take a look at those

i love pinfold cricket (gbx), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

What we need is testimony from a female to male trans person who's taken or is taking supplemental testosterone therapy.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 23:46 (2 years ago) Permalink


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