Israel to World: "Suck It."

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speaking of chavez: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/15/chavez-smear-campaign-capriles-presidential

DG, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 13:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

max: a pal on a finance forum introduced me to Spengler in 2001. Can't say I've read him regularly for the past 5 years, as like most op-columnists he's long exhausted his reserve of insights and is on the retreadmill.

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 17:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ahmadinejad as actually a misunderstood liberal hero-of-the-people

Not liberal but he plays rural culture war politics well. The Green Movement was very urban as I recall.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 17:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

this is how ahmadinejad operates

the presidential motorcade rolls through the town of bumfuck, egypt
ahmadinejad suddenly stops the motorcade and gets out to talk to a farmer sitting on a pile of dirt
"what ails you, old man?"
"ain't got a shovel"
the very next day, the old man had a new shovel, as did all of his neighbors

if you watch iranian state news, shit like this happens on a weekly basis

the late great, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

he also spends a TON of time burnishing the myths of the iraq war and the revolution, paying tribute to the martyrs and the revolutionary guard

ie he is not a leftist or a liberal, he is an ultra-populist

the late great, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

i don't know much about chavez but i think the comparison is apt - both spend a lot of time catering to the least educated / most reactionary parts of the population, who may or may not have a strong understanding of how gov'ts and economies work on a national or international level, and spend a lot of framing things in manichean terms (it's either nuclear weapons OR be slaves of israel!) and a lot of time "speaking truth to power"

the late great, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Off-topic, about NYT new Jerusalem Bureau chief:
http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/91408/somebody-tell-jodi-rudoren-to-stop-tweeting/

Mordy, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

what a weird piece

max, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Rafsanjani's daughter was a Mousavi supporter, I thought.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

I kinda get what Marc is saying. She's not an op-ed writer, so a lot of that source collection stuff (I understand the pragmatic necessity of buddying up to ppl you may find reprehensible if you're going to be covering them) should probably stay off the record? Maybe she sees twitter as a networking platform and Marc is saying that she needs to realize ppl will be reading into her own beliefs thru it?

Mordy, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

i just dont really get the tone there. feels very concern troll-y

max, Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

very!

it's not 'the times should not have hired someone so friendly to the dove side of this conflict', it's 'boy she should be quiet if she doesn't want people to hate her!'

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ppl are likely to hate her regardless

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 15 February 2012 18:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,816491,00.html

SPIEGEL: So we should admit to ourselves that the two-state solution is dead?

Nusseibeh: Mathematically speaking, a two-state solution is an excellent solution. It causes minimum pain and it is accepted by a majority on both sides. Because of this, we should have brought it into existence a long time ago. But we did not manage to do so.

SPIEGEL: Who is to blame for that?

Nusseibeh: First of all, it took Israel a long time to accept that there is a Palestinian people. It took us, the Palestinians, a long time to accept that we should recognize Israel as a state. The problem is that history runs faster than ideas. By the time the world woke up to the fact that the two-state solution is the best solution, we had hundreds of thousands Israelis living beyond the Green Line (ed's note: the 1949 Armistice Line that forms the boundary between Israel and the West Bank). There is a growing fanaticism on both sides. Today, the pursuit of a two-state solution looks like the pursuit of something inside a fantasy bubble.

Great interview - but Nusseibeh's idea of "a joint single state, Palestinians should be given civil rights, but no political rights" seems really problematic to me, especially since self-determination has been at the root of the matziv.

Mordy, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 15:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

Palestinians should be given civil rights, but no political rights

It's a total Trojan horse. Nothing would more deligitimize Israel in most of the world's eyes than actually codifying the accusation of 'apartheid'. Ironically, it might improve the lot of many Palestinians.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 22 February 2012 16:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also re assassinated nuclear scientist: http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=9010175602

"Mostafa's ultimate goal was the annihilation of Israel," Fatemeh Bolouri Kashani told FNA on Tuesday.

Bolouri Kashani also underlined that her spouse loved any resistance figure in his life who was willing to fight the Zionist regime and supported the rights of the oppressed Palestinian nation.

Iran's 32-year-old Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan Behdast, a chemistry professor and a deputy director of commerce at Natanz uranium enrichment facility, was assassinated during the morning rush-hour in the capital early January. His driver was also killed in the terrorist attack.

Roshan was killed on the second anniversary of the martyrdom of Iranian university professor and nuclear scientist, Massoud Ali Mohammadi, who was also assassinated in a terrorist bomb attack in Tehran in January 2010.

The method used for Roshan's assassination was similar to the 2010 terrorist bomb attacks against the then university professor, Fereidoun Abbassi Davani - who is now the head of Iran's Atomic Energy Organization - and his colleague Majid Shahriari. Abbasi Davani survived the attack, while Shahriari was martyred.

Mordy, Wednesday, 22 February 2012 16:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

Man, I never know what to make of this kind of stuff. Is it true? Is it to counter the dissuasive effect of Mossad assasinations? Does it matter? Heck, he could have been totally lukewarm about the whole issue except for the whole threat of Evin so it may be a moot point.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 22 February 2012 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

What never fails to kind of weird me out about the ideological reality of Iran is how much it's old school, anti-colonial, romatic chic married to a really repressive version of an already repressive religion. In a religion where there's no really established church, this is about as closed and established a politico-religious authority as you can get yet they pay homage to the anti-West leftism of the 50's and 60's.

le ralliement du doute et de l'erreur (Michael White), Wednesday, 22 February 2012 16:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

If I posted every time Sullivan said something stupid I would never get anything done but I had to share this:

Matt Duss reports on how Israel's border restrictions have reshaped society in the Palestinian enclave:

The result of the policy of closure ... has been the development of a sizable black market economy based upon illegal tunnel trade. This has been accompanied by the growth of influential constituencies in both Egypt and Gaza that oppose any effort to shut down the tunnels, and will lobby hard against the creation of a more open, regulated border. By empowering a large new merchant class that profits from the tunnels, the closure policy has effectively created another stumbling block to normalization of relations between Israel and the Palestinians.

And that wasn't the point?

Sullivan believes that Israel instituted a policy of closure in order to create a new black market merchant class so as to make normalization of Israel/Palestinian relations more impossible. It's like there's something wrong in his brain where if X leads to Y, it must be that Y was the intended result of X. He must believe the Israelis responsible for the policy are genius psychohistorians who could somehow predict exactly what would happen years down the line.

Mordy, Friday, 2 March 2012 15:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

I believe he was implying less possible, Mordy, but I'm with you on the whole improbable stretch of logic there.

Morning becomes apopleptic (Michael White), Friday, 2 March 2012 15:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

What do you mean he was implying less possible?

Mordy, Friday, 2 March 2012 15:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think all sullivan is saying is that the intent of the closure policy was to make normalization more difficult in general, not that it was intended to create a black market in specific

goole, Friday, 2 March 2012 15:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2012_03/bibis_blblical_politicsand_sar035886.php#

Bibi Netanyahu presented President Obama with a scroll version of the Book of Esther from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Maybe it’s just a favorite of Bibi’s (though I don’t know that he’s renowned for personal piety). Maybe it’s an allusion to the Jewish Feast of Purim (which began tonight), commemorating Queen Esther’s success in foiling a plot by a Persian schemer to exterminate Jews. Or maybe it’s something else, as Jeffrey Goldberg (among others) has suggested:

The prime minister of Israel is many things, but subtle is not one of them. The message of Purim is: When the Jews see a murderous conspiracy forming against them, they will act to disrupt the plot. A further refinement of the message is: When the Jews see a plot forming against them in Persia, they will act to disrupt the plot, even if Barack Obama wishes that they would wait for permission.

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 7 March 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

fuck a netanyahu

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

obv with his meeting coinciding with purim there's no way bibi could resist the allusion.

Mordy, Wednesday, 7 March 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

Commence operation Trojan Hamentashen

simulation and similac (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 20:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't know why they refined it further tho. In the Purim narrative the Jews get permission from the King to kill Haman and his sons.

Mordy, Wednesday, 7 March 2012 20:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everything has gotta be 300% more salacious tho, I guess. Ramp it up.

Mordy, Wednesday, 7 March 2012 20:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't know why they refined it further tho. In the Purim narrative the Jews get permission from the King to kill Haman and his sons.

― Mordy, Wednesday, March 7, 2012 2:54 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

right and the jews have friends in high places -- the king has a jewish wife. let the conspiracy theories begin.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 22:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

Nice.

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 13 March 2012 16:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Saw some of the interivew with the ex-Mossad guy on "60 Minutes" Sunday

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ex-mossad-boss-meir-dagan-israeli-attack-iran-stupidist-article-1.1037219

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 13 March 2012 16:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have had a hunch all along about an Israeli bluff tactic here, and if so this guy is not helping their bluff. Although maybe he has his own agenda to advance, who knows.

the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 13 March 2012 16:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

60 Minutes touched on the allegations why he was forced out of the Mossad (but I missed most of that part). He insists that he's not trying to just push his own agenda in retaliation.

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 13 March 2012 16:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

no discussion on ilx yet about beinart boycott proposal but it seems ridiculous to me for following reasons:

1. humanitarian crisis is in gaza, not west bank, but boycotting settlements will do absolutely nothing for gaza
2. even if it helped (or even if we said it didn't matter), dead sea cosmetics and gush wine are not large enough industries that a boycott would have any impact on settlement economies and that's primarily bc
3. settlements exist bc the real estate is very cheap + affordable, and bc it is in close proximity to jerusalem. unless the boycott includes a provision to airlift the westbank somewhere else, it won't solve those issues. even if it bankrupts the few settlement companies, they'll continue to settle and just commute to work in israel proper.
4. everyone agrees that some of these settlements (particularly the established ones that would be most targeted by a boycott) will be a part of a final land swap! the settlements you want to impact are the small, new, hilltop ones that have no industry to speak of and can't be effected by a boycott.

putting aside all the other discussions about beinart and the boycott, i think that unless i'm missing something, the above points should pretty much disqualify his plan from serious conversation. it's just fantasyland absurd.

Mordy, Thursday, 22 March 2012 18:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do the settlements export much outside Israel? My impression was this boycott would be mainly something for anti-occupation Israelis.

o. nate, Thursday, 22 March 2012 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

They don't even export a lot to Israel, but even if they did, the entire op-ed was explicitly speaking to American Jews and what they can do to impact the settlements.

Mordy, Thursday, 22 March 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

I remember when there was a big stink at my local co-op about whether or not they should sell Israeli products (this was back during the second intifadeh iirc) and all I could think of was "uh, what Israeli products...?"

the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 22 March 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

There are substantial Israeli fruit exports to Europe, but aside from cut diamonds (not a big co-op category) there's very little consumer input on their main exports to the U.S. (figures from 2007):

Gem diamonds … US$9.5 billion
Dental, medical and pharmaceutical preparations … $2.7 billion
Telecommunications equipment … $746.8 million
Complete civilian aircraft … $685.9 million
Other hospital, medical and scientific equipment … $655 million
Electric apparatus and parts … $385.6 billion
Civilian aircraft engines … $370.5 million
Measuring, testing and control instruments … $337.1 million
Other military equipment … $271.3 million
Computer accessories, peripherals and parts … $254.6 billion

Pauper Management Improved (Sanpaku), Thursday, 22 March 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

Those numbers are from Israel, fyi. We are discussing specifically settlement exports.

Mordy, Thursday, 22 March 2012 21:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

If Israel's uncritical supporters are so against the settlement boycott then there must be something to it.

The New Dirty Vicar, Friday, 23 March 2012 12:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

You might want to double-check that heuristic. I can think of about a dozen reasons why it doesn't work.

Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2012 12:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

Obv more symbolic than anything else.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Friday, 23 March 2012 13:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

I do find it funny that some people "supposedly" opposed to the settlements are like "this will never work", but don't seem to be too invested in finding any other alternatives.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Friday, 23 March 2012 13:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think we should start by boycotting American goods

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Friday, 23 March 2012 13:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, because if you can't think of a workable alternative you should definitely just go with the shitty idea already on the table. xp

I do understand, though, that people get frustrated when they want to do something but don't know what they can do. So here are some ideas for individuals who must do something, and wouldn't mind making that something productive too: Volunteer your time to one of the many humanitarian missions to Gaza, take a trip to the West Bank and spend some tourism dollars, push for Netanyahu and Fayyad to come back to the negotiating table and come up with an agreeable land swap (really the only option that will make any difference), or just hang out and wait for the settlements to stretch over all the West Bank so that we are left with a de facto one state solution (probably the ultimate endgame no matter what you do).

Mordy, Friday, 23 March 2012 16:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Yeah, because if you can't think of a workable alternative you should definitely just go with the shitty idea already on the table. xp"

If said shitty idea is better than wringing your hands and doing fuck all, yeah, I'm inclined to say why not go with it. Esp. since I don't see this causing much harm really.

As for your options: I have zero interest in visiting Israel, engaging in humanitarian missions that might result in me getting killed aren't my thing either, when I am on the phone with Bibi I push for him to return to the negotiating table all the time, but he just doesn't seem to listen, and see hand wringing above...

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Saturday, 24 March 2012 15:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also not really clear how except for the actual negotiating table idea (which no one posting here can actually ya know influence) those ideas aren't even shittier and more futile than the boycott Beinhart is proposing.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Saturday, 24 March 2012 15:27 (2 years ago) Permalink


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