things you're secretly kinda libertariany about

its a parking law

I'm libertarian about politics and religion, which to me means I like diversity, I don't want to turn on the television and see only people who think like me, I like to see conservative viewpoints or learn about people's religious beliefs. Some people think "libertarian" means "I hate God" or something.

I didn't know that people thought that!

While I've nothing against opera and enjoy some of that stuff myself, basically I think that if people don't want to listen to opera enough to support it, just let it die! Various art forms have born and died throughout history (sometimes to be resurrected again decades or centuries later), there's no need for them to be kept artificially alive just because the higher-class people who decide on the subsidies think some art form is more valuable than another one.

it's not that simple. there may be Higher Class people acting as cultural gatekeepers of art funding and there may not, but if the state subsidises culture that otherwise wdn't happen or wd be severely curtailed then it does so for the benefit of all its members. it's like saying there shd be no publically subsidised art galleries because if people care enough, they'll shell out the odd million pounds to have their own art collection.

i'd agree there are issues around the way arts are funded but state-subsidised opera exists to allow all sorts of people to enjoy it, not just dudes in top hats and monocles.

if all that many wanted it it'd be sustainable without subvention is the argument.

I dunno where i stand on that tbh, i'd always kneejerk towards public money having better things to be doing than supporting sports/arts/whatever but meh gotta do something with all that phat cash i guess

abstract industrial steel sculptures in the middle of roundabouts ca do one, tho

like i say i recognise that arts grants is fraught with contestible issues. but tbh all governments jizz away enough money on stuff that's actively evil that it seems curmudgeonly to moan about stuff that actually brings people pleasure

arts funding is not just for the sake of promulgating culture or whatever high purposes it espouses, but also as a kind of soft (and effective) job creation scheme for a population w/o a lot of koosh

There are also state prestige/display things bound up with top-end opera & ballet so they might get disproportionate money, but yeah, subsidies in uk at least for that stuff are usually tied up with affordable seats, community programmes afaict.

I'm pro-arts but in the U.S. the pro-arts position isn't articulated well. It's a fair question to ask how the U.S. in general benefits from, say, the funding of European classical programs. I think our country surely benefits from support for American cultural endeavors like jazz or folk music programs. I don't think our democracy has any substance, however, without educational programming.

It's a fair question to ask how the U.S. in general benefits from, say, the funding of European classical programs. I think our country surely benefits from support for American cultural endeavors like jazz or folk music programs.

this strikes me as a very strange and sort of jingoistic thing to say. people and cultures can benefit from art/the arts whether or not the work in question is entirely "homegrown".

Smoking in pubs should be allowed. FFS!

it's interesting how many smokers seem to think that

Also at this stage aren't they (classical / jazz / folk) mostly "things you only do if someone's paying you to"?

yeah, living in a non-smoking country is a joy, tbph

NV- i was kind of agreeing with you on 'gotta spend it somehow, opera won't kill anyone'

you can replace 'opera' w/ any other form of music there tho

I'm against funding for classical music because I hate old people

I don't see how my statement is either strange or jingoistic when the same "argument" can be found in the mission statements of many American cultural organizations. Public interest is what justifies arts funding whether it is public or private. For example, PBS support for Ken Burns. Is Ken Burns stuff jingoistic or are documentaries about jazz, Frank Lloyd Wright and Prohibition globally as well as domestically relevant?

being 'libertariany' about zoning should really go in the fascisty thread -- basically you want to remove all local power over land use in favor of a larger body or plan.

it's less land-use restrictive but very politically restrictive, if that makes sense. nimby politics are like the most ancient kind of politics.

― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Monday, February 13, 2012 2:46 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

naw being able to do what u want on YOUR LAND w/o yr neighbors saying shit is the heart of libertarianism, of course thats not really why i want zoning relaxed, but then im not libertarian

Question: if the majority of pub patrons wanted pubs to be non-smoking, why didn't enterprising landlords open hugely successful no-smoking pubs before the smoking ban came into play?

(i actually quite like my little walks outside to meet new and interesting and cool people who smoke tbh but still)

because large groups of people are likely to have at least one smoker who's gonna bitch about it

plus it wouldn't be as 'cool' as the other bars

it's like they had a non-smoking casino in vegas, it went nowhere, but everyone can agree that casinos in vegas are the most disgusting smelling thing in the universe. still, nobody wants to party in the mormon casino.

people who smoke are cool by default.

smoking is bad for you

people didnt realize how much they liked it until after the law was in effect

Smoking in pubs should be allowed. FFS!

― The Invisible Superstars (dog latin), Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:40 AM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's interesting how many smokers seem to think that

― iatee, Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:41 AM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am a nonsmoker, and i think smoking in bars should be legal, so long as there are dedicated, well-ventilated spaces for it. along with dedicated, well-ventilated spaces for nonsmokers.

actually I'd prefer if they had to do it in a small enclosed room

o you don't like the smoke I thought you liked smoke

the fascist thread is over there btw

this is the libertarian thread I do what I want

they can smoke but they have to keep all the smoke inside them until theyre outside

Vaguely remember an article from like 10 years ago about how the problem with getting kids not to start smoking isn't that "smoking" is cool, it's that SMOKERS are cool (or "cool" to 12yos or w/e).

it's cos we just don't care

All smokers have to wear 1950s-style bubble space helmets all the time and their car windows are locked permanently in the "up" position.

not giving a fuck isnt cool you know whats cool listening to the government

dunno if you guys knew this but smoking is bad for you, and for the people who are around you when youre smoking

The smoking ban has ruined fun in our town - especially music venues. As a promoter, it's basically impossible to keep a room full because everyone's outside smoking, and even the non-smokers stand outside with their mates. So between acts the place is basically empty, this ruins the atmosphere and then people stop coming to live shows because all they do is stand outside, so it's not worth the cost of the ticket. Most of the venues and pubs don't even have the means to create comfortable smoking areas so smoking queues just spill out all over the shop creating excessive litter, extraneous noise, not to mention an inconvenience for people trying to get past. There was a noticeable number of pubs and venues that had to close or have their live music license revoked within a year or so of the smoking ban.

Plus, for fuck's sake - pubs are supposed to be dens of sin. You should be able to smoke in them.

sounds like a lot of people in england should quit smoking then

put the bands outside problem solved

i am a nonsmoker, and i think smoking in bars should be legal, so long as there are dedicated, well-ventilated spaces for it. along with dedicated, well-ventilated spaces for nonsmokers.

― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:06 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This.

people stop coming to live shows because all they do is stand outside, so it's not worth the cost of the ticket.

do these people understand what a live show is?

lag∞n, you've never been to the uk huh?

lag∞n is actually prince charles

do these people understand what a live show is?

― ledge, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:11 (16 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

?

for real tho the smoking ban is really a workplace safety issue, like you couldnt have a factory thats full of smoke

i think that is the truest answer tbh

i would pay good money to remain outside many music venues

I don't see how my statement is either strange or jingoistic when the same "argument" can be found in the mission statements of many American cultural organizations. Public interest is what justifies arts funding whether it is public or private. For example, PBS support for Ken Burns. Is Ken Burns stuff jingoistic or are documentaries about jazz, Frank Lloyd Wright and Prohibition globally as well as domestically relevant?

sure, but public interest can be served by the support of homegrown art forms as well as arts that have their roots elsewhere. suggesting that we cut funding for ostensibly "european" art forms in favor of "american" ones strikes me as at least slightly suspect. supporting homegrown art and art forms /= jingoism, but specifically opposing the funding of not-officially-homegrown stuff does seem to slide in that direction.

Sure it's not worth the cost of the ticket if you're not actually gonna like go inside and see the band.

People who think live shows are primarily a place to hang out with their mates should be killed, basically.

xp to dl

Also, they're going to so much trouble covering up the cigarette installations in off-licences and supermarkets, and yet smokers are encouraged to display their bad habits to all and sundry on pub doorsteps. FFFUU---