things you're secretly kinda libertariany about

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you guys this is the thread 2b secret libertarians, every other thread on ilx is for hating libertarians

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

this is a safe zone where we will trade w/ each other and make contracts and shoot guns, so many guns

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

citizens united is a crime against man and god (belongs in fascisty tho)

[oop, iatee on point]

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

OK, fair enough, I just want to be more libertarian than thou when it comes to my free speech absolutism -- which is based on the idea that speech is speech and not something else. Citizens United is only loved by dumb libertarians (yes, yes Department of Redundancy Department time).

Three Word Username, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

individuals should be free to break contracts without consequence

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

(shoots you)

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

hoos i wonder if you've seen those arguments in the past year between mises-affiliated folks and graeber himself? p revealing stuff.

yes i have! yes it is!

colonial america seems to be the eden of this mindset but the details are left very muddy.

― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:39 AM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

for reaaaalz

(shoots at iatee)

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

(shoots contracts out of a contract gun)

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

(shoots pens that sign the contracts in midair)

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

my god

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 07:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

HOOsteen, there was a pretty big discussion above that was partly inspired by your

that said i'm p 'libertarian party' when it comes to guns

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, February 12, 2012 9:36 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I got a response from milo. How bout you? Note that I'm not trying to be provocative or anything. Just curious.

things you're secretly kinda libertranny about (beachville), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 09:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

In Finland there's a huge system where the state subsidizes various art institutions... While I think the idea is good in theory, in practice a disproportionate amount of the money goes to "high art" institutions, like opera and classical music orchestras, while various forms of "low art" (i.e. stuff that working class and lower middle class people enjoy) get much less. The justification for this is that without the state support many of the high art institutions would face an economical crisis and possibly go bankrupt. The most obvious example of this is the National Opera, which gets more than half of its budget from the subsidies, and much less from the actual ticket sales. While I've nothing against opera and enjoy some of that stuff myself, basically I think that if people don't want to listen to opera enough to support it, just let it die! Various art forms have born and died throughout history (sometimes to be resurrected again decades or centuries later), there's no need for them to be kept artificially alive just because the higher-class people who decide on the subsidies think some art form is more valuable than another one.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 10:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

there should be no traffic laws

max, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

this is something im libertarian about

max, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

no traffic laws, no sidewalks, no parking on roads

max, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

that sounds like a traffic law son

plee help i am lookin for (crüt), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

its a parking law

max, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm libertarian about politics and religion, which to me means I like diversity, I don't want to turn on the television and see only people who think like me, I like to see conservative viewpoints or learn about people's religious beliefs. Some people think "libertarian" means "I hate God" or something.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Trucks of my Tears (Mount Cleaners), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I didn't know that people thought that!

things you're secretly kinda libertranny about (beachville), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

While I've nothing against opera and enjoy some of that stuff myself, basically I think that if people don't want to listen to opera enough to support it, just let it die! Various art forms have born and died throughout history (sometimes to be resurrected again decades or centuries later), there's no need for them to be kept artificially alive just because the higher-class people who decide on the subsidies think some art form is more valuable than another one.

it's not that simple. there may be Higher Class people acting as cultural gatekeepers of art funding and there may not, but if the state subsidises culture that otherwise wdn't happen or wd be severely curtailed then it does so for the benefit of all its members. it's like saying there shd be no publically subsidised art galleries because if people care enough, they'll shell out the odd million pounds to have their own art collection.

i'd agree there are issues around the way arts are funded but state-subsidised opera exists to allow all sorts of people to enjoy it, not just dudes in top hats and monocles.

dayove cool (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 13:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

if all that many wanted it it'd be sustainable without subvention is the argument.

I dunno where i stand on that tbh, i'd always kneejerk towards public money having better things to be doing than supporting sports/arts/whatever but meh gotta do something with all that phat cash i guess

abstract industrial steel sculptures in the middle of roundabouts ca do one, tho

beware of greek bearer bonds (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 13:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

like i say i recognise that arts grants is fraught with contestible issues. but tbh all governments jizz away enough money on stuff that's actively evil that it seems curmudgeonly to moan about stuff that actually brings people pleasure

dayove cool (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 13:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

arts funding is not just for the sake of promulgating culture or whatever high purposes it espouses, but also as a kind of soft (and effective) job creation scheme for a population w/o a lot of koosh

"renegade" gnome (remy bean), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 13:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

There are also state prestige/display things bound up with top-end opera & ballet so they might get disproportionate money, but yeah, subsidies in uk at least for that stuff are usually tied up with affordable seats, community programmes afaict.

woof, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 13:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm pro-arts but in the U.S. the pro-arts position isn't articulated well. It's a fair question to ask how the U.S. in general benefits from, say, the funding of European classical programs. I think our country surely benefits from support for American cultural endeavors like jazz or folk music programs. I don't think our democracy has any substance, however, without educational programming.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Trucks of my Tears (Mount Cleaners), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 13:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's a fair question to ask how the U.S. in general benefits from, say, the funding of European classical programs. I think our country surely benefits from support for American cultural endeavors like jazz or folk music programs.

this strikes me as a very strange and sort of jingoistic thing to say. people and cultures can benefit from art/the arts whether or not the work in question is entirely "homegrown".

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

Smoking in pubs should be allowed. FFS!

The Invisible Superstars (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's interesting how many smokers seem to think that

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also at this stage aren't they (classical / jazz / folk) mostly "things you only do if someone's paying you to"?

Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, living in a non-smoking country is a joy, tbph

NV- i was kind of agreeing with you on 'gotta spend it somehow, opera won't kill anyone'

beware of greek bearer bonds (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

you can replace 'opera' w/ any other form of music there tho

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm against funding for classical music because I hate old people

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't see how my statement is either strange or jingoistic when the same "argument" can be found in the mission statements of many American cultural organizations. Public interest is what justifies arts funding whether it is public or private. For example, PBS support for Ken Burns. Is Ken Burns stuff jingoistic or are documentaries about jazz, Frank Lloyd Wright and Prohibition globally as well as domestically relevant?

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Trucks of my Tears (Mount Cleaners), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

being 'libertariany' about zoning should really go in the fascisty thread -- basically you want to remove all local power over land use in favor of a larger body or plan.

it's less land-use restrictive but very politically restrictive, if that makes sense. nimby politics are like the most ancient kind of politics.

― Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Monday, February 13, 2012 2:46 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

naw being able to do what u want on YOUR LAND w/o yr neighbors saying shit is the heart of libertarianism, of course thats not really why i want zoning relaxed, but then im not libertarian

lag∞n, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

Question: if the majority of pub patrons wanted pubs to be non-smoking, why didn't enterprising landlords open hugely successful no-smoking pubs before the smoking ban came into play?

(i actually quite like my little walks outside to meet new and interesting and cool people who smoke tbh but still)

dayove cool (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

because large groups of people are likely to have at least one smoker who's gonna bitch about it

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

plus it wouldn't be as 'cool' as the other bars

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's like they had a non-smoking casino in vegas, it went nowhere, but everyone can agree that casinos in vegas are the most disgusting smelling thing in the universe. still, nobody wants to party in the mormon casino.

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

people who smoke are cool by default.

The Invisible Superstars (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

smoking is bad for you

max, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

people didnt realize how much they liked it until after the law was in effect

lag∞n, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Smoking in pubs should be allowed. FFS!

― The Invisible Superstars (dog latin), Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:40 AM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's interesting how many smokers seem to think that

― iatee, Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:41 AM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am a nonsmoker, and i think smoking in bars should be legal, so long as there are dedicated, well-ventilated spaces for it. along with dedicated, well-ventilated spaces for nonsmokers.

Little GTFO (contenderizer), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually I'd prefer if they had to do it in a small enclosed room

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

o you don't like the smoke I thought you liked smoke

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

the fascist thread is over there btw

dayove cool (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

this is the libertarian thread I do what I want

iatee, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

they can smoke but they have to keep all the smoke inside them until theyre outside

lag∞n, Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

Vaguely remember an article from like 10 years ago about how the problem with getting kids not to start smoking isn't that "smoking" is cool, it's that SMOKERS are cool (or "cool" to 12yos or w/e).

one little aioli (Laurel), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's cos we just don't care

dayove cool (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

All smokers have to wear 1950s-style bubble space helmets all the time and their car windows are locked permanently in the "up" position.

The Large Hardon Collider (Phil D.), Tuesday, 14 February 2012 15:09 (2 years ago) Permalink


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