so tell me, why is Kaputt better or worse than Let England Shake?

lol it was not always such

Really? PJ Harvey's first four studio albums were all top 10 on P&J, and critics like Greil Marcus used to speak of her in the same breath as Elvis.

<i>lol it was not always such</i>

You're right... And I used to be put off by her reception as a giantess of Alterna- back in the '90s!

I care next to nothing about lyrics, next to nothing about Grand Artistic Concerns in music,

Clarke, I'm pretty much the same way, which is why I'm often surprised I like PJ as much as I do. But there's also stuff she's done that bores me.

I'd like to sit with her more; plenty of folks on here and elsewhere whose tastes I admire and respect rep for her. It's just hard for me to get past the way she's framed in the discourse (and that's a shortcoming of me as a listener, I freely admit).

PJ HARVEY SIT ON MY FACE

so there aren't any canonical artists you like clarke?

i'm anti-canon as a matter of principle but i find it hard to believe.

not listening to music because its 'in the canon' is the most stupid thing ever. I'd even question how much you like music if you do that. People who do this seem more interested in the theory rather than the actual music.

you're not even interested in the theory of music if you blanket reject canonical music; you are interested in the fashion of music

i was thinking more along the lines of a journalists theory of what music should be but yeah that too

Really? PJ Harvey's first four studio albums were all top 10 on P&J, and critics like Greil Marcus used to speak of her in the same breath as Elvis.

to be fair every greil marcus breath is about elvis

There are tons and tons of canonical artists I like! But they're typically firmly in the past at this point... I'm not so much anti-canon (I actually find it interesting and culturally significant/important the way we create and alter and evolve our various canons) as I am anti- obvious attempts at canon-building. With an album like this that's been out less than a year, it feels like straining to try and force it into a canon so soon. People have barely had time to live with the album and grow with it, you know? I think I dislike when I can see the seams of critical straining to assign importance and lasting value to something so newly created.

We're so terrified of not recognizing a masterpiece when it first gets released that we push really hard in the other direction.

you're not even interested in the theory of music if you blanket reject canonical music; you are interested in the fashion of music

and that's cool, there's a lot of crossover between the two. honestly, i'm a bit of a reactionary myself, and often reject things casually on the basis of where they seem to fit into the culture. but i recognize and try to fight this impulse - while still respecting the fact that i do have a point of view and even a "tribe". it's complicated...

not listening to music because its 'in the canon' is the most stupid thing ever.

I'm actually always motivated to investigate canonized works; this is exactly what I'm NOT tryin to say.

i'm not certain people are trying to canonize anything, they're maybe just doing some rankings and talking about albums they like and consider to be great (LES is one, kaputt even more of one, whether people will talk about LES for example in five years we shall see...)

Lex brought up the canon!

no point in worrying about what people will talk about in 5 years. You wont know for 5 years so talk about it in the present.

I'm not so much anti-canon (I actually find it interesting and culturally significant/important the way we create and alter and evolve our various canons) as I am anti- obvious attempts at canon-building.

isn't that even worse though? instead of pushing back against an established tradition, you're then pushing back against anything that seems to get too much acclaim, and constantly having to calibrate this against your sense of how that acclaim equates to "canon-building". and, god, there are so many different canons in different subgroups. sounds exhausting.

It's all good. Half – more than half maybe – of the battle waged when I write concerns to what degree I fight my biases or accept them.

The canon rules, so many awesome jams in that funky old canon

James brown, the fall, zz top, etc

clarke i was more responding to i'm anti-canon as a matter of principle

which as a long time poster on ilm, i have seen these statements made many times over the years, especially back in around 2001 when i first started postibg rather than lurking. Funnily enough Tom and others did move away from this and started listening to and liking beach boys,rolling stones etc.

It's best not to think of it as The Canon but more like "people who recorded music I like before I was alive."

instead of pushing back against an established tradition, you're then pushing back against anything that seems to get too much acclaim, and constantly having to calibrate this against your sense of how that acclaim equates to "canon-building". and, god, there are so many different canons in different subgroups. sounds exhausting.

Haha, it is! No, it's really more a matter of feeling alienated by intense hype. It's really hard for me to form personal connections to things that are so surrounded by it.

Oh shit, up on cripple creek just came on! Thank u based canon

rap canon, jazz canon, electronic/dance canon, lolindie canon, fogey canon, artfuxx canon, ponytail worldmusic canon, etc, etc, etc. so many tastemakers to oppose...

oh i hate it when you can feel opinion ossifying around a new record that ticks every critic-friendly box and you can feel the canon forming inexorably around it. i remember getting that very clearly with sound of silver. it's probably different with LES cuz i loved it and PJH

i find the best way to judge music is by listening to it. Whether its in a can or not has no influence other than maybe giving the impetus to check something out. However there's a LOT of great records not in the canon that should be. And I feel that would be better served by getting good records IN the canon rather than dismissing the canon altogether.

*in a canon

i don't think excessive hype by itself would be enough to put me off hearing a record though - usually when i try to avoid a hyped album it's also cuz i have good musical reason to suspect i won't like it

oh i hate it when you can feel opinion ossifying around a new record that ticks every critic-friendly box and you can feel the canon forming inexorably around it. i remember getting that very clearly with sound of silver. it's probably different with LES cuz i loved it and PJH

In other words the canon is okay if you like the artists in them

However there's a LOT of great records not in the canon that should be

yup that's why i don't put much stock in it. it's fairly meaningless and dry but i don't like the idea of those records that weren't "right" for it getting lost.

sometimes hype can put me off but later i hear it without the surrounding hype and actually like it. Which i know happens to you sometimes lex as you've posted about that before.

No, it's really more a matter of feeling alienated by intense hype. It's really hard for me to form personal connections to things that are so surrounded by it.

okay, scratch that last one. being suspicious of hype makes a lot more sense, though that too can turn into a reactionary position. i'm sort of oppositional (no, really!), so as much as i'm leery of hype, i find that the more time i spend on ILX, the more i'm inclined to embrace things that attract collective loathing. and that's often the overhyped flavor of the week.

x-posts

which as a long time poster on ilm, i have seen these statements made many times over the years, especially back in around 2001 when i first started postibg rather than lurking. Funnily enough Tom and others did move away from this and started listening to and liking beach boys,rolling stones etc.

I've posted about this on various other threads here and there (I've been on ILM on and off since 2000 myself), but I think the old-ILM tendency to canon-bash was an exhilarating attempt to shun something that felt stale and oppressive so that we could start fresh and talk about pop and whatever else in open, non-self-conscious, honest, irreverent ways. What has happened over the years, it seems to me--and I don't mean to be mean, but Lex at his most rabid really embodies this for me--is that this canon-bashing that started as an act of therapy, really, has hardened into just another critical position: pop-ism, whatever you want to call it. One of the biggest eye-opening realizations old-ILM helped me achieve is that having a relationship with music should adamntly NOT involve principles!

Lex you do a lot of fancy gymnastics to basically say ” stuff I like rules, stuff I hate drools”

Also clarke otm w last post

it's not particularly fancy tbh

One of the biggest eye-opening realizations old-ILM helped me achieve is that having a relationship with music should adamntly NOT involve principles!

Honestly, I don't think this can be stressed enough.

here here

or is it hear hear

hear here

ear ear

geir geir

canon-bashing that started as an act of therapy, really, has hardened into just another critical position

agree w this. canon-bashing and indie-bashing (and anything-bashing) get tedious very fast. the need to constantly define oneself in opposition to one's imagined inferiors is nagl, unless it's done with a very sharp wit and/or real political substance. "cool kid" snark is semi-endurable when it comes from teens and young adults, simply because they don't know any better and their naive passion is charming, but it quickly loses its appeal after that.

i find myself avoiding canonical or popular stuff a lot not on principle but because i spend a lot of time digging into stuff that isn't particularly 'popular', which comes from investigating music over time i guess, idk. i go from johnny cash and country into folk and fairport convention and into steeleye span and solo maddy prior and then june tabor and so on, to cite an example. sometimes of course it happens to lead into popular stuff but since the vast bulk of all music is out of the spotlight (and a corresponding percentage of excellent music is too) i end up naturally finding more obscure stuff i like. and my obscure tastes are only relative to some, by the standards of others on ILM i'm pretty MOR.

i think people have an idea of me as way more dogmatic than i am! i don't have principles or rules

prove it. go listen to a bob dylan album.

I totally get what you're saying omar, as someone in a similar situation, but it was very lol to read "i spend a lot of time digging into stuff that isn't particularly 'popular'" followed closely by "i go from johnny cash and country"

i tried that in 2001

lol well i mean a path like that would be going from popular to 'obscure'