Who says ILM debates never get anywhere?
― Nick, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Stevie Nixed, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Surely this would mean that Smiths and Belle & Sebastian fans = rockists, and Rolling Stones fans = non-rockists ?
― Patrick, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tim, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Stones = MOST INAUTHENTIC ROCK GROUP OF ALL TIME BAR NONE, and that's what's GRATE abt em of course. Rockists SAY they like em, but when you go deeper, it's all talk.
(Patrick, is that you moved and back and settled in? Or are you another anti-anti- rockist Patrick joined forces with the first?)
― mark s, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― dave q, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Patrick, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Jan Geerinck, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Aaron W (Aaron W), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:25 (twenty years ago) link
Did I get that right?
― Frühlingsmute (Wintermute), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:28 (twenty years ago) link
Albums over songs. "Feeling" over, uh, other stuff. Individual performance and "real" performance over the "fake" (think synths and drum machines). A focus on lyrics. Narrative. "Development".
says Josh.
AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!
As a side point, I don't think that the world is rockist at all. It only turns into a rockist review when a reviewer who's only used to reviewing rock tries to review somethign else - not equipped with the tools maybe? If you're used to talking about how an album flows from song to song (which is often, for me, an element in the enjoyment of music) how do you cope if there's only 1 track? Or 12 indistinguisble tracks? How do you give a drum machine a mark out of ten for the drumming?
P.S. I'd like to append all of this by saying that I really don't knwo what I'm talking about. Thank you.
― Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:11 (twenty years ago) link
― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:13 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:14 (twenty years ago) link
Privileging of received wisdom over new discoursePrivileging of credibility / authenticityPrivileging of numbers and categorisation / lists
Mythology making the arbitrary appear necessary / essential
Making the cultural appear natural by making it appear to be invisible
The pursuit of objectivity
― Jimmybommy JimmyK'KANG (Nick Southall), Thursday, 16 September 2004 08:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― LSD ARISTOCAT (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 January 2005 19:39 (nineteen years ago) link
in america some seem to appreciate the post-punk 79-81 'real uk independant scene that we in uK have 'misplaced'and are refinding - see the Messthetics albums - brill bootleg compilations...
sorry am rambling and losing the thread..
jimmy
― james rogers, Wednesday, 10 August 2005 21:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― fe zaffe (fezaffe), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 22:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― bobby bedelia (van dover), Saturday, 27 January 2007 04:49 (seventeen years ago) link
yay van dover
― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Saturday, 27 January 2007 06:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― chad (chad), Saturday, 27 January 2007 07:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 27 January 2007 07:38 (seventeen years ago) link
― critique de la vie quotidienne (modestmickey), Saturday, 27 January 2007 07:55 (seventeen years ago) link
― StanM (StanM), Saturday, 27 January 2007 09:18 (seventeen years ago) link
I prefer k-punk's "romantics of production vs romantics of consumption"
In a funny way "romantics" captures something hard to define but essential about both rockism and popism in a way that "authenticity" doesn't - at a stretch I'd call it their emotionally charged inconsistency.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 10:07 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 27 January 2007 11:19 (seventeen years ago) link
― m the g (mister the guanoman), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:06 (seventeen years ago) link
Conversely, pop-discourse treats the pop star as the primary source of production, when in fact in reality many pop stars do not actually produce most of their own music beyond providing vocals - however if listeners ascribe to popism and/or pop discourse, they may choose to act as if the pop stars are the primary producers.
So rock involves a fantasy of consumption in order to preserve the primacy of production, whereas pop involves a fantasy of production in order to preserve the primacy of consumption.
It is irrelevant here that pop listeners "know" that their favourite pop star is not actually writing the songs, just as it is irrelevant that the rock listeners know that they have not actually seen their favourite hot new band live yet, or listened to their album on vinyl in a room. It's the acting as if these things are true in the face of knowledge to the contrary which is the very essence of the fantasies.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:17 (seventeen years ago) link
I seriously disagree with this, Tim. Rock-discourse actually values an album after it's been listened to repeatedly; masterpieces "hold up" after three dozen listens.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:29 (seventeen years ago) link
― ampersand, spades, semicolon (cis), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:34 (seventeen years ago) link
obviously one can listen to an album in one go many times over the course of a lifetime.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:35 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:36 (seventeen years ago) link
― M@tt He1g3s0n: oh u mad cuz im stylin on u (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 27 January 2007 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 27 January 2007 16:45 (seventeen years ago) link
OK, I getcha.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 27 January 2007 22:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― M@tt He1g3s0n: oh u mad cuz im stylin on u (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 27 January 2007 23:26 (seventeen years ago) link
Hmm...ideas for future Teena Marie album liner notes.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 27 January 2007 23:43 (seventeen years ago) link
I mean that, in 2006, it is not "natural social behaviour" to listen to an album in one go on vinyl in a room, but it IS to listen to MP3s in bits on the bus. The rockist constructs false environments in which to consume rock because rock needs to be consumed "properly", that's how it's designed - the popist consumes pop whenever and wherever he/she can, because that's what pop is for. Ergo the consumption of pop is more authentic, because it doesn't require falsely-constructed environments, and I would argue that, say, Lex (as definitive strawman popist!) would see it as a positive thing that people listen to Ciara on the bus, because that(consumption)'s authentic, and who gives too figs whether the music was made "because Ciara was feeling it, man, and needed to express it", or because some producer had a tune and some A&R man had a face for the tune (which is inauthentic, because it is manipulative.
And we all know how rock is (supposedly) produced - friends-from-childhood in the garage.
So, pop manipulates you when it is produced, because of the (supposed) unnaturalness of it's production, but not when it's consumed, cos you can consume it whenever and wherever you like. Rock manipulates you when it is consumed, because it ought to be live, or all in one go, but not when it's produced because kids in garages with cheap guitars is "natural".
Of course, pop lies about it's autheticity of consumption just as much as rock lies about it's authenticity of production; the lies necessary tools in the pop playbook in order to construct myths which fit the music into the right slot in order to attract the pre-ordained fanbase necessary for it to succeed. Which is why Scritti Politti "fail" at pop and The Kooks "fail" at rock.
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:29 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:30 (seventeen years ago) link
― bobby bedelia (van dover), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:33 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:34 (seventeen years ago) link
― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 28 January 2007 08:03 (seventeen years ago) link
this is just wild, unsupported assumption stated as fact, on the basis that there is such a quantifiable thing as 'natural' social behaviour in the first place. social behaviour is in no way homogenous, and both can be seen as as 'natural' as each other. there's nothing unusual about the fact that many people who are into music can and do engage in both of these activites, albeit not usually at the same time. there's nowhere to plug in your turntable on the N73.
― m the g (mister the guanoman), Sunday, 28 January 2007 11:28 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Sunday, 28 January 2007 11:55 (seventeen years ago) link
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1663591,00.html
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 27 September 2007 14:30 (sixteen years ago) link
no chillax no cred
― ledge, Thursday, 27 September 2007 14:37 (sixteen years ago) link
The 1975’s Brits nomination proves great pop isn’t always drowned out by mindless gym music
― Alba, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 12:48 (one year ago) link
lol amazing
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 12:56 (one year ago) link
While making the album, The 1975 sought to capture the pure essence of their band – to simply “play it and record it,” as Healy told the New York Times last year. “Any kid can make a bedroom thing that sounds crazy,” he said. “What you can’t do is have been in a band for 20 years and be great players and go into a room and have that freedom.” The resulting album makes you feel as if you were in the room with the band as they recorded it.
Wow irl Aging rock act on new album: This time we wanted to go back to the basics guys in a room
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:03 (one year ago) link
If you're not listening to the 1975, you're probably at the gym
― Nabozo, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:11 (one year ago) link
Have they really been together for 20 years?
― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:16 (one year ago) link
Sounds like rockism is her weapon of choice for generation warfare. At the same time wishing for music that unites everyone by soundtracking our lives like Elton John.
― Nabozo, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:17 (one year ago) link
I'm a rockist man
Burning out his fuse up here alone
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:21 (one year ago) link
the opossite of thinking pop music with dubious quality (taylor swift, beyonce, the weekend, drake...) is relevant: the opposite of rockism... and both wrong
― CerebralCaustic, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:43 (one year ago) link
i miss the days when all new posters like this were considered to be a sock
― imago, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:00 (one year ago) link
sockism
― imago, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:01 (one year ago) link
lol
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:14 (one year ago) link
it's more fun if you call them shit instead of not relevant - you'd be half wrong but have some courage in your own subjectivity
what's the rockism of appeals-to-relevance? it's a real thing and you can do it for or against rock or pop or whatever
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:49 (one year ago) link
It’s a far cry from previous decades, when artists like Elton John, Kate Bush and Phil Collins – who made music about grown-up concerns, which could be enjoyed by teens alike – soundtracked our lives. (It’s no surprise that this is the current state of pop in a country whose music industry is, according to the charts, propped up by a holy trinity of po-faced men: Ed Sheeran, George Ezra and Lewis Capaldi.)
I like Phil Collins but also it's very funny to use Phil Collins as an example here (and surely Phil is at least as po-faced as Sheeran, Ezra and Capaldi?)
― soref, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:23 (one year ago) link
I want someone to write a take on rockism that explains how Phil Collins and Steely Dan were the two uncoolest things imaginable to rockist gen x-ers but are both loved by rockist millenials. I have no idea what zoomers think of them, if anything
― soref, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:27 (one year ago) link
the early definitions on this thread are interesting in how diverse they are. what I'm getting is that rockism is a lot like fascism in how syncretic and incoherent it is and how many different guises can wear. someone could write a thing on ur-rockism like umberto eco did for fascism
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:38 (one year ago) link
"We wanted go back to the sound of just four guys in a gym."
― INDEPENDENTS DAY BY STEVEN SPILBERG (President Keyes), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 16:13 (one year ago) link
i prefer 'whinerism'
― CerebralCaustic, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:02 (one year ago) link
Why don't we ask Freddie deBoer
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:03 (one year ago) link
runner up: crypto-poptimists & crypto-rockists
― CerebralCaustic, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:06 (one year ago) link