haha sorry.
― g e o f f (gcannon), Monday, 2 May 2005 22:22 (8 years ago) Permalink
― g e o f f (gcannon), Monday, 2 May 2005 22:23 (8 years ago) Permalink
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Monday, 2 May 2005 22:27 (8 years ago) Permalink
But the thing is, this is both annoying and also kind of impressively audacious. I don't think that Jordan is intentionally stalling so much as just suffering from a bad case of being fascinated with the cataloguing of all of his characters' inner worlds to an obsessive-compulsive degree.
It's like, the series started off as Lost and somewhere along the way became The O.C.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 2 May 2005 22:55 (8 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 2 May 2005 22:57 (8 years ago) Permalink
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 01:49 (8 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 01:58 (8 years ago) Permalink
― Dan I. (Dan I.), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 02:26 (8 years ago) Permalink
― Dan I. (Dan I.), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 02:31 (8 years ago) Permalink
But I mean.... fuck! I started reading them when I was still going to little kids' summer camp and here I am entering the adult world.
― A homunculus of Darby Crash, .... created for the purposes of *EVIL* (ex machina, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 02:53 (8 years ago) Permalink
― tom west (thomp), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 03:00 (8 years ago) Permalink
I love the recurring plot trinkets as well, the plot intricacy is the best thing about the series I reckon. What I'm referring to are situations like seventy pages of Perrin worrying about nothing in particular or Aviendha and Elayne envying eachother's hairsytles.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 03:14 (8 years ago) Permalink
― lemin (lemin), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 04:06 (8 years ago) Permalink
― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 04:23 (8 years ago) Permalink
― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 04:38 (8 years ago) Permalink
― ryan (ryan), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 04:41 (8 years ago) Permalink
Did the sorceress woman who vanished through the magic doorway ever come back?
Gene Wolfe's forst set of books abt Severian the Torturer pwn these books in just about everyway, mind.
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 10:39 (8 years ago) Permalink
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 10:45 (8 years ago) Permalink
― The Ghost of Internet Slash To Thread (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 10:46 (8 years ago) Permalink
Moiraine? Maybe. Maybe not.
― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 13:00 (8 years ago) Permalink
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 13:02 (8 years ago) Permalink
http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=%22wheel+of+time%22+%22slash%22&meta=&btnG=Google+Search
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 13:09 (8 years ago) Permalink
― adam (adam), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 13:09 (8 years ago) Permalink
Anyway, this is tempting me to "catch up", except I'd have to read them all from the top, and that's a mighty slab of pulp.
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 13:11 (8 years ago) Permalink
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 13:13 (8 years ago) Permalink
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 13:13 (8 years ago) Permalink
Yeah but it would be better if he did more of the "fucking people up" and less of the "think about anything except Berelain's legs" guilty repression trips.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:46 (8 years ago) Permalink
― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:09 (8 years ago) Permalink
― ryan (ryan), Sunday, 28 August 2005 18:53 (7 years ago) Permalink
― ryan (ryan), Sunday, 28 August 2005 18:57 (7 years ago) Permalink
i finally finished nine, which was fucking tedious and terrible.
read "A Game of Thrones" by George R. R. Martin instead. First book in the best fantasy series of the decade.
― Ian John50n (orion), Sunday, 28 August 2005 19:15 (7 years ago) Permalink
― chap who would dare to thwart the revolution (chap), Sunday, 28 August 2005 19:26 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 28 August 2005 20:14 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Ian John50n (orion), Sunday, 28 August 2005 20:26 (7 years ago) Permalink
― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Monday, 29 August 2005 14:54 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:00 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Laura H. (laurah), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:51 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 29 August 2005 15:52 (7 years ago) Permalink
SHIT IS SO GOOD. READ IT ALL UP.
― Ian John50n (orion), Monday, 29 August 2005 21:52 (7 years ago) Permalink
― TOMBOT, Monday, 29 August 2005 22:22 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 29 August 2005 22:42 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Ian John50n (orion), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 00:57 (7 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, i think I started in 1994! I have not read a fantasy book in yonks I think. And yet i am vaguely pondering the impending release date with anticipation...
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 12:14 (7 years ago) Permalink
"Q: What is the worst lie you've ever told?A: It's hard to think of one since I am genetically incapable of lying to women and that takes out 52% of the population right there."
"Q: If you could have one superpower what would it be?A: That depends. If I'm feeling altruistic, it would be the ability to heal anything with a touch, if that can be called a superpower. If I'm not feeling very altruistic, it would be the ability to read other people's minds, to finally be able to get to the bottom of what they really mean and what their motivations are. "
Also, worst cover yet!
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 12:19 (7 years ago) Permalink
No it was 1992! That is wrong.
I now won't start a fantasy series until all the books have been published. So I'm denying myself the GRR Martin and the Stephen Erikson books that are meant to be really good.
I delude myself into thinking that Jordan means it when he says that it'll all be finished in the next couple of books and that one day I can go back to it and read the whole thing from beginning to end.
― Greig (treefell), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 13:06 (7 years ago) Permalink
I've been tempted, over the years, to write to Jordan informing him of these strange things called "editors". It's been 15 years and he still hasn't got anywhere near the bloody point, I know kids who are reading them who weren't born when the first one was published. And I'm also sick of his characters being trapped in permanent adolescence or (in the case of his female characters) permanent PMS.
― Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 13:21 (7 years ago) Permalink
― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 13:42 (7 years ago) Permalink
― Ian John50n (orion), Tuesday, 30 August 2005 13:53 (7 years ago) Permalink
I think the first thing that needed to happen to make this truly work would have been to turn it into two books
signed, Tim Foherty
― kill yuppies (Lamp), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 01:54 (3 months ago) Permalink
Pevara was introduced in the seventh book and Androl in the ninth; how does that make them Sanderson characters?
― Ima R.A.E.D. (DJP), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 02:04 (3 months ago) Permalink
(Unless you just mean Sanderson wrote more of their material than Jordan did, which is kind if a necessary side-effect of dude dying)
― Ima R.A.E.D. (DJP), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 02:05 (3 months ago) Permalink
yeah - their forced-seeming courtship and the general dynamics of their relationship were total jordan too tbh. i think the stuff at the black tower was some of the best and most intense stuff of the entire last book and was some of the only material that seemed almost underplayed but androl was a shitty character outside of those first few chapters i couldnt help but resent having to spend so much time w/him
― kill yuppies (Lamp), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 02:12 (3 months ago) Permalink
Idk as i read their stuff its got a sanderson feel, this may be wholly imagined. Also cant help but doubt jordan meant for so many major and interesting characters to fade out without trace while such major focus lands on (for all that dan is correct in their debuts) two johnny-come-lately characters (and there wasnt any meat to them until sanderson took over.
again, this is obv just what i'm attributing while reading, it's subjective as can be, but it does feel slightly crowbarred in, a kind of power grab that doesnt fit with what (imo) the conclusion needed.
― habemus paparazzi (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 11:37 (3 months ago) Permalink
It's just a very weird thing to say regarding Pevara, since she was introduced eons ago and always put into a situation where you would expect her to become a very important force for transformation within the Red Ajah; in fact, I'd say she was introduced by Jordan specifically to signpost to the readers how the Red Ajah could pull itself out of the tailspin the Black Ajah had cooked up for it.
Androl didn't become important until after Jordan died but he was also clearly (to me, anyway) someone introduced late in the game by Jordan as an example of how the channellers were going to have to get past the idea of raw power determining leadership in order to be successful.
I have no opinion on their relationship stuff, that probably felt Sandersony because there was very little sniffing, braid-pulling, or walking in on each other in various states of undress.
― Ima R.A.E.D. (DJP), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 14:15 (3 months ago) Permalink
Lol oh shit was pevara one of the reds involved in investigating the black ajah? Ah well i mean fair enough, id say my bad but rly its tough enough to keep track of the top twenty characters let alone the ones that go from hardnosed white tower detectives to smoochy leather fetishists overnight tbrr
― habemus paparazzi (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 15:23 (3 months ago) Permalink
lol Pevara was the ringleader of the Reds investigating the Black Ajah!
― Ima R.A.E.D. (DJP), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 16:10 (3 months ago) Permalink
Fuck off, i'm NOT reading it again
― ...to work on his autobiography, "kiddyfiddling as rome burns" (darraghmac), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 16:11 (3 months ago) Permalink
The funniest thing about that whole plot was how Seaine or whatever the fuck her name was started things off and then Jordan sidelined her when he realised Pevara was more interesting/useful.
It's easy to assume that Jordan had this compulsion to follow plot lines and characters regardless of whether there was an ultimate point, but there's heaps of examples of this e.g. Sorilea effectively replacing Bair (only for Sanderson to bring the latter back in the final book).
Which reminds me, the lack of a Sorilea is a darkfriend big reveal was half missed opportunity and half relief bc I like her a lot.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 21:22 (3 months ago) Permalink
I'm trying to think of who the top 20 characters in this actually are
I mean obv: Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Min, Aviendha, but who comes next? Spouses (Tuon, Faile)? White/Black Tower folk (Siuan, Logain, etc)? Forsaken (Llanfer, Demandred, Moridin, Moghedien, Graendel, etc)? The great generals? Aiel (Rhuarc, Amys, etc)? Does Min actually rank in the top 20 or does she get extra weight due to being one of Rand's Furies? etc etc etc
― Ima R.A.E.D. (DJP), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 21:31 (3 months ago) Permalink
Min totally ranks. She's been having pretty crucial POVs since book 4.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 21:36 (3 months ago) Permalink
I mean, I think she ranks, but I wasn't sure if that was just me rooting for the plucky precog
― Ima R.A.E.D. (DJP), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 21:42 (3 months ago) Permalink
here, what was all that Perrin Lanfear business about?
― Number None, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 22:17 (3 months ago) Permalink
Top good guy characters:
RandMatPerrinEgweneNynaeveElayneMinAviendhaMoiraineLanThomSiuanVerinGawynGaladFaileCadsuaneSorileaTuon
What's interesting about the above list is that, with the exception of the final three, all of them had made an appearance by the third book. That in itself is not surprising of course - you'd expect the basic contours of the story (and hence its main characters) to be set up in the early books - but what is surprising is that Cadsuane and Sorilea are the only two "good" characters who feel like they were crucial to later plot devlopments but were not necessary (i.e. RJ post book 3 could have never introduced them) whereas even Tuon had been foreshadowed pretty heavily. Then, of course, Cadsuane and Sorilea were basically mirroring characters with mirroring roles (and a direct working relationship with one another).
― Tim F, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 22:20 (3 months ago) Permalink
― Number None, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 10:17 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
That segment of the fanbase that is invested in tracing the mythological reference points in the story have long claimed that from a mythic perspective Lanfear was tied more closely to Perrin than to Rand.
Shoving it all into the final book made it seem both shoehorned and opportunist, in several senses: opportunist for Lanfear in finding someone to play with while Rand was otherwise occupied and seemingly indifferent; opportunist for the authors for effectively the same reasons and also as a way of giving Perrin a role to play in the final "real" last battle plus score a Forsaken kill.
See also Matt dealing with Padan Fain.
As with most of the big plot developments in the final book, in the abstract there's a great symmetry to this, I think, being that while Rand (who lives with LTT's memories) has to deal with the question of whether a world of imperfection, injustice, evil, pain, etc. is worth saving, Perrin (the archetypal humble leader) deals with the character who represents the evil of untrammelled ambition, while Mat (the military genius who retains the capacity to laugh) deals with the evil born of a desire for revenge shorn of ethics. Basically Lanfear and Fain are the two main embodiments of forms of "evil" that are not simply a derivation of the big bad.
So the idea becomes Rand needs them at the last battle not just because he needs their help in a prosaic sense to avoid getting killed, but because "evil" as such takes multiple forms and hence needs to be resisted in multiple ways.
Plus similarly Perrin/Lanfear have Tel'aran'rhiod skillz and Mat has the knife connection to Mashadar (but the whole immunisation metaphor was so tritely executed it was laughable).
So I expect that all of the above had been planned from the very beginning. But the execution was so clumsy because it was done so hurriedly and was so pat.
If the Lanfear/Perrin plot had been set up in Towers of Midnight - i.e. Lanfear had been stalking Perrin while he trained with Hopper - it wouldn't have seemed nearly so arbitrary. I'm guessing Brandon decided that to do that would interfere with the "is Lanfear really evil" fake-cliffhanger in that book.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 22:35 (3 months ago) Permalink
i think one of the more interesting things about the wot is how willing jordan was to sideline important characters if he thought it helped further the story or made things more interesting. like removing almost all the rand pov chapters from 'the dragon reborn' ends up making the book more effective - keeping rand's goals and mental state opaque even to the reader makes the book more exciting, 'raises the stakes' &c.
but what is surprising is that Cadsuane and Sorilea are the only two "good" characters who feel like they were crucial to later plot devlopments but were not necessary
haha i think part of the development of the plot/placement of characters w/in the narrative was structured to show how necessity was the driving force - you were where the pattern/rand needed you to be &c &c
idk i think theres really just rand - everyone else. elan morin has a claim to be the next most 'important' character if only because of jordans love of mirroring/balancing but i think its hard to make a defined hierarchy, philosophically events dictated to characters rather than the opposite? i also loved how jordan would repeatedly bring back incredibly minor characters both as grace notes but also to show the sort of chain of cause and effect that undergirded the idea of the pattern
― kill yuppies (Lamp), Tuesday, 12 February 2013 22:46 (3 months ago) Permalink
Absolutely.
Similar in the treatment (though more specific in purpose), what made Verin and Sorilea such interesting characters the whole way through was how carefully calibrated their POVs were such that you never really knew what their ultimate intentions were.
This was realised brilliantly with Verin of course. With Sorilea I think BS just ran out of time to do anything with it.
I'm not sure what would have been more satisfying: her being a darkfriend (perhaps she could have been crucial to Graendal having a bigger impact at Shayol Ghul than she actually did), or her turning out to have a much more complex/involved endgame in mind (presumably centered around the future of the Aiel) than we ever guessed.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 23:27 (3 months ago) Permalink
You ppl are memory wizards
― ...to work on his autobiography, "kiddyfiddling as rome burns" (darraghmac), Wednesday, 13 February 2013 00:08 (3 months ago) Permalink