And so my only beef w/ zach was that using a slur and crafting racist policy is both an example of racism. If however you are just saying that both exist within some really broad institution called American Society -- well, we're just talking then about what institutions are, not about what racism is.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
Was going to say, if someone -- let's say his name is Toad Cowpatty -- says lolsome racist shit when he feels relaxed and "safe" around friends, maybe he's a racist?
― Rotary Boy of the Month (WmC), Friday, January 27, 2012 8:20 PM (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
OTM.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
Well that lovefest for frogbs this morning ended quick.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time. He might not be really seen as racist by people who aren't privy to his line of thought, but his route through life and ideas on politics and ethics are pretty much an outgrowth of the belief that some of these racist or biased ideas are true.
yes, this is one guy you know, but saying that anyone who makes race jokes in private is a secret racist and has fucked up political ideas is taking it a little far
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
For "institution", it might be better to just say "the Man". <--alert! joeky!
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
why are they saying these jokes in private and not in public? BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY'RE WRONG
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
Frogs, seriously. Why would you *want* to make race jokes unless you're a racist? What exquisite joy do race jokes offer that I'm missing here?
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
one who makes race jokes in private is a secret racist and has fucked up political ideas is taking it a little far
smh so damn hard I'm cracking vertebrae
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
great article nakh
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
I think the standing issue in the thread is whether "..institutions such as public government bodies, private business corporations (such as media outlets), and universities (public and private)" can really be disconnected from the system of society at large. They're concrete organizations, but really connected enough that most people are networked into this web.
So if you strictly think institutional racism has to come from one of these organizations directly, then strictly speaking, non-institutional racism does exist and zach is kind of stretching the definition. If you believe that there is "a system" that is independent of concrete institutions -- say, American society at large -- then you're going to say that all racism is institutional.
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:25 (twelve years ago) link
fwiw horrible jokes are only funny if you never know someone who's been discriminated against because they're black, white, gray, purple, gay, or a dead baby
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:26 (twelve years ago) link
exception: holocaust jokes are always funny
― tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
xxp Yeah, that's why I think I lost the thread of the conversation for a bit. I thought we were arguing about what racism meant. Really we were discussing what 'institutional' meant.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
xxxxp Or female. Or a nun. Or an elephant in a refrigerator.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
except the one about pizzas not screaming in the oven, they didn't put live people in the ovens, read a book
― tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, i don't find holocaust jokes funny fyi.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.photobasement.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/gif-frog-love-copy.gif
― joepa mi pinga (am0n), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
― Mordy, Friday, January 27, 2012 3:29 PM (19 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Yeah, what the fuck was that?
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:30 (twelve years ago) link
terrible meta-joke? *hides in shame*
― tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
xs-post - Also, while I would not call it a lovefest (really Jon?! smdh) I take back my earlier sentiments. You're a fucking shithead.
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
um I think that was sarcasm, adding to my list
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
why do people tell jokes at all? what joy does any kind of joke offer? it's really a matter of a pretty widespread belief that offensive things are generally funnier than non-offensive things and that that racial stereotypes = offensive? have you not seen any dumb comedies in the last 50 or so years?
btw I hate that I have to make this clear but I'm not talking about myself here! I found that type of humor pretty uninteresting past the age of 15
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
err - not you Amon
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
lol
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
no, try again dude
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
You're a fucking shithead.
What the fuck? I didn't even mention you, it was a blanket zing about the MULTIPLE people this morning that were saying, in essence, "he's not so bad".
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
frogbs, if you were nowhere near the cookie jar, why are you holding a glass of milk as you wipe cookie crumbs off your shirt?
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
x-psot - omg I wasn't calling you a shithead!!!
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
― Mordy, Friday, January 27, 2012 12:28 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
this (mh via mordy) is a v good point
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
Sorry! I saw the part where you were shaking your head at me and through you were still directing that at me!
(xpost)
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
thought... stupid swype
have you not seen any dumb comedies in the last 50 or so years?
I screen all comedies in private, away from the oppressively unfunny presence of actual minorities
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
I think everyone has come out of this thread having learned something today, excepting of course frogs.
― beachville, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
x-post - Yeah, it wasn't clear - sorry.
― ENBB, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
Oh man, now all we need is lex to chime in on comedy and this thread will encompass everything about ilx ever.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
Not really, no. And if they're all filled with racist shit, I'm glad I haven't.
I like plenty of 'offensive' humour but none of it is based on assumptions about people's innate worth.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
everyone otm lock it down
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
frogbs fwiw there is a difference between making a joke about a racial stereotype - like in, say, the Jerk where Steve Martin insists he is black - and making racist jokes. Stereotypes can be funny when they are ridiculed/punctured, when they are used to make fun of a specific subset of people, they are simply racist.
xp
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
'Offensive' humour = death, sex, bodily functions, stuff at your own expense.
'Not actually humour but racism' humour = racism.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:38 (twelve years ago) link
Also Shakey Mo OTM
b/c I'm trying to do the same thing the last 200 posters have been doing, saying that all racism isn't created equal!
I agree that in pretty much all forms it's bad taste and incorrect and shaking my head at the idea that apparently everyone who's ever laughed at a racial joke is a hateful moron, especially when its a (lazy) cornerstone of the modern sitcom/R-rated comedy
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:39 (twelve years ago) link
Honestly it's like you think we all got together this morning and made up all these rules just to trick you. WAKE UP. This is the rest of the world.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
agreed, but there can be hints of racism in both and again, it's not equal
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
I'm bailing on the what is jokes discussion on the what is racist thread.
― WHY DO YOU HATE RAINBOWS? (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
yeah when i say "institutional" i mean the institution of western society and white colonialism, not like organizations of white people with an official seal
*runs away again*
― zachylon (zachlyon), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:42 (twelve years ago) link
any thoughts on jam donaldson't hot ghetto mess/ we can do better?http://www.hotghettomess.com/
― Sébastien, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:43 (twelve years ago) link
again, if you guys just read my posts and didn't make fucked up assumptions this thread would literally be 1000 posts lighter
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:43 (twelve years ago) link
good rule of thumb, frogbs: if you wouldn't tell a joke in front of a person of a particular race, ethnicity, religion, creed, class, etc, you shouldn't say it when they're not around. the reason why you wouldn't tell the joke in front of them is not bc they wouldn't understand that it's not actually offensive. the reason why is bc you rightfully would feel shame. feel that shame in private too.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:43 (twelve years ago) link
Maybe it's better to say that anyone who laughs at a hateful/racist joke is being hateful/racist and moronic at that moment. Whether they are all of those things at base will depend on how often and how guiltlessly they indulge the impulse, and whether they ever personally confront what those ideas bring about, like suffering, poverty, etc.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:44 (twelve years ago) link
so just so we're clear, the way you were using it is not the generally accepted use of the word, right?
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:44 (twelve years ago) link