jesus christ ur a wormy motherfucker...
zach so obviously otm. hilarious to see so many shlubby whitetards cry about the ways it may be possible if they can just fly away w their imaginations they can be racised against.
― try again, fascist (Matt P), Friday, January 27, 2012 11:37 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
just because i agree in principle with an idea doesn't mean that i have to see equal merit in every application of that idea. i've tried to articulate a fairly complex response ITT.
the immediate and idiotic recourse to cheap playground shaming isn't worth responding to, so...
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 19:51 (twelve years ago) link
Your mistake was not swearing tbh xps
― tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Friday, 27 January 2012 19:52 (twelve years ago) link
I'm okay with anyone answering it. Also, maybe explain what you see as the meaning of the term 'institutional?' Are all of these things examples of institutional racism?1. A belief in the racial superiority of people on your own race2. Not hiring qualified POC bc you believe they aren't as intelligent as non-POC3. Crafting drug policy that targets particular people of color4. Beating someone up bc you don't like what race they come from5. Believing that people have different strengths and weaknesses because they belong to an inherent racial categoryetc etc
I think they're all examples of racism, but I don't get necessarily what makes them all institutional. Certainly some might have systemic qualities (particularly #3) but racism is not always an institutional conspiracy, I don't think. Maybe it is -- but what do we gain from believing that?
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:53 (twelve years ago) link
Kind of remembering the battle between black customers and Korean convenience store/bodega owners documented in early 90s LA that didn't need white people to tell each group how to be racist
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:54 (twelve years ago) link
but its modern form and the term itself were invented by white ppl, so we feel a somewhat proprietary interest in its definition.
Please direct all your "ask a white man" questions to Aimless.
― WHY DO YOU HATE RAINBOWS? (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 27 January 2012 19:55 (twelve years ago) link
Does a thread exist for the movie Crash?
― mookieproof, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:55 (twelve years ago) link
eh that's basically every contenderizer post itt?
― try again, fascist (Matt P), Friday, January 27, 2012 11:45 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
horseshit. nowhere in this thread have i made a big, weeping deal about the ability of white people to be racised against. i've gone much farther out of my way to condemn white complaints of "reverse racism".
i feel like i'm being taken to task by an idiot with an axe to grind.
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 19:56 (twelve years ago) link
Well, I don't think it has to be a "conspiracy" for it to be institutional (although it certainly can be). I'm sure many of the roots of institutional racism are learned, just as with personal, bigotted racism.
― beachville, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:56 (twelve years ago) link
institutional racism = things posted on rolling "Is This Racist?" thread
― crüt, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:57 (twelve years ago) link
waiting for deej to show up and call me a fascist again, tbh
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 19:57 (twelve years ago) link
I believe the meaning of institutional ____ is that certain beliefs, policies, and prejudices exist at a number of different levels of an institutional structure, and that they often work in tandem to deny the rights of a particular group and privilege another group. But I also believe that there are numerous institutions, some as large as the colonial project of the Western world, some unique to particular governments in particular countries, some corporate cultures, communal cultures, familial cultures. Is racism that primarily exists and is perpetuated within a familial system 'institutional'? Not all of these institutions share the same racist beliefs. In some it is very pronounced, in others it is totally silent + implicit. I think an intelligible discussion of race will account for all these nuances and subtleties, and not try to argue that racism means one particular thing and nothing else.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:57 (twelve years ago) link
contenderizer, since you have been taking a very semantically-based approach to this discussion, I defy you to defend your characterization of my speaking one the one hand of a 'tendency' and on the other of an 'affinity' as being "cut-and-dried terms". This is like trying to beat me about the face and head using a cloud for a weapon.
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:58 (twelve years ago) link
Holy shit guys, the gawker guy getting fired for a racial slur was over half a thread ago!
― beachville, Friday, 27 January 2012 19:59 (twelve years ago) link
welcome to ilx, beachville
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:00 (twelve years ago) link
actually I think I have changed my mind and I'm more in tune with DJP and Matt P
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:02 (twelve years ago) link
you can't take a semantically-based approach to a semantics argument, you can either make a semantics argument or you can argue about something else entirely
― iatee, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:05 (twelve years ago) link
contenderizer is doing #1 everyone else is doing #2
btw frogbs, it might be ok among your friends to crack racist shit and have amateur comedian hour or whatever, but... really, it's a bad idea in the long term. There's only so much you can do with that and talk shit and pretend that you have "real" feelings underneath before your public persona is completely the racist/sexist/homophobic bullshit. If people only see you acting that way, then guess what? That's you.
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:06 (twelve years ago) link
you can't take a semantically-based approach to a semantics argumentyou can't take a semantically-based approach to a semantics argumentyou can't take a semantically-based approach to a semantics argumentyou can't take a semantically-based approach to a semantics argument
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:07 (twelve years ago) link
― mh, Friday, January 27, 2012 12:02 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
cool, then i'm the one you'll want to be calling a "shlubby whitetard".
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:07 (twelve years ago) link
a semantics argument is inherently semantically-based xp
― iatee, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:08 (twelve years ago) link
I have basically been in agreement with DJP and zach, but I am a little mystified by the severity of Matt P's beef with contenderizer. I don't think contenderizer was ever making an argument form the "white people are victims of racism too" camp. Unless I missed something? This went by quickly, but I only recall seeing a few posts early on that were actually arguing that.
― WHY DO YOU HATE RAINBOWS? (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:08 (twelve years ago) link
contenderizer must die for frogbs' sins
http://www.seeklogo.com/images/T/tumblr-logo-941B107660-seeklogo.com.gif
― joepa mi pinga (am0n), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:09 (twelve years ago) link
The "institution" under discussion here as I understand it is American society, which is why pretty much all of these things fall under the umbrella of institutional racism. If you want to make the distinction between, say, society at large and specific businesses/organizations within that society, that's fine I guess, but it misses the point that there are a lot of things that are, if not outright barriers, definitely impediments in the way of a person of color and assumptions about them in our society that an otherwise equivalent white person wouldn't have to deal with.
Like, a good chunk of the things that pop up on this thread can be chalked under "idiot didn't think things through" but that idiot also grew up in a society that never actually made him/her think about those things in the first place.
xp: lol iatee OTM
― I spend a lot of time thinking about apricots (DJP), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:10 (twelve years ago) link
I think I understand the value of not making race jokes in public
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:11 (twelve years ago) link
you can't take a semantically-based approach to a semantics argument because a semantics argument is inherently semantically-based?
unless I am mistaken, this means your approach is required to be semantically-based.
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:12 (twelve years ago) link
I went to south africa recently and boy are my arms tired
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:12 (twelve years ago) link
Dan, it'd be useful for someone who does get it to point out how a possible less egregious case of the "idiot didn't think things through" is actually explaining a manifestation of something systemic.
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:13 (twelve years ago) link
but seriously folks race and racism is pretty crazy in south africa
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:13 (twelve years ago) link
― Aimless, Friday, January 27, 2012 11:58 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
i meant that describing this discussion in terms of a position that "white ppl tend to go with" in opposition to one that "non-whites have a much stronger affinity for" racializes an otherwise abstract disagreement in very explicit terms. i don't reject your argument, but i'm not sure that it's either true or productive.
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:14 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.newstatesman.com/200003270024
― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:15 (twelve years ago) link
every car I was in in south africa was playing nikki minaj for some reason
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:15 (twelve years ago) link
I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time. He might not be really seen as racist by people who aren't privy to his line of thought, but his route through life and ideas on politics and ethics are pretty much an outgrowth of the belief that some of these racist or biased ideas are true.
Pretty sure he supports Ron Paul, actually
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
Mostly I just hurt inside because I can't say the n-word or start a club for just dudes or whites.
― WHY DO YOU HATE RAINBOWS? (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
You can lead a frog to culture but you can't make him think.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
Laurel, I'd assume some of what I said myself or a few others actually fall in the category according to how Dan worded it!
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
re: aimless and my last post
though, okay, the "tends" and "affinity" language does allow for a lot more subtlety than i was granting. retract the "absurdly presumptive" business with all apologies. was caught up a bit in the heat of the moment.
― his hands are a dirty fountain through which lives spurt (contenderizer), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Friday, January 27, 2012 8:11 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
You miss the point. It's still not fucking okay to make them in private. You say it's not harmful - it is. You're perpetuating that shit, even if it doesn't leave the walls of your little in-group in overt ways, it does matter, it does count, and you're a fucking prick if you think it doesn't.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
what would you guys say the moved fucked up country is re: racism
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
most
if all of ilx were to go to the mirror once a day, look in it, and say "the racist is me" we would have a different world
― mh, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:19 (twelve years ago) link
I didn't mean in public. I knew people in high school who would never publicly say anything racist or even outrightly prejudiced, but would crack jokes in private around friends all the time.
Was going to say, if someone -- let's say his name is Toad Cowpatty -- says lolsome racist shit when he feels relaxed and "safe" around friends, maybe he's a racist?
― Rotary Boy of the Month (WmC), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
I fall into that category, too because lol small town full of white people. But once you start to see the wider picture, you're responsible for trying to keep seeing it, and to see it even more clearly, all the time.
― one little aioli (Laurel), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
If the entire thrust of the term 'institutional racism' is just acknowledging that racism exists within a broader cultural context, then I don't think we're arguing. I agree with that entirely and I don't believe there's racism that is somehow a-contextual.
The way I understood institutional racism was actually as the manifestation of racism through institutional policy as opposed to the explicit racism you might see in individuals or racist organizations. So - drug policy in the United States? Institutional racism. Using a racially charged slur? Not institutional racism.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
thank you, c
― Aimless, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
guys why you want to ruin frogbs' country club it's just a bit of fun
― Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
And so my only beef w/ zach was that using a slur and crafting racist policy is both an example of racism. If however you are just saying that both exist within some really broad institution called American Society -- well, we're just talking then about what institutions are, not about what racism is.
― Mordy, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
― Rotary Boy of the Month (WmC), Friday, January 27, 2012 8:20 PM (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
OTM.
― emil.y, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
Well that lovefest for frogbs this morning ended quick.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 27 January 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link