Is this anti-semitism?

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Time and again, this strategy of deflecting and denying anti-Semitism has proved reliable. Following the recent controversy over claims by Josh Block, a former AIPAC spokesman, that left-wing outfits like Media Matters and the Center for American Progress are pushing the dual-loyalty canard with growing brashness, the commentator David Frum wondered “whether it is more unacceptable inside today’s liberal Washington to use the language of anti-Semitism—or to protest the language of anti-Semitism.” Frum got his answer when Block was relieved of his title at the progressive Truman National Security project for issuing group e-mails citing Jew-baiters in the left-wing media.

this is, as i understand it, not an accurate gloss of what happened!

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

Justifying Hitler is for amateurs! Rabbi Nachman Kahane (Meir's brother!) explains why Pharaoh had no choice but to enslave the Jews.

http://nachmankahana.com/?p=648#more-648

Paro was indeed evil, but in the name of truthful objectivity, one must agree that the Jews themselves could not “wash their hands in innocence”.... The situation became so chaotic that Paro had no choice but to convene his inner cabinet and enslave the Jews in order to prevent social and political unrest, and by then it was too late for the Jews to escape to Eretz Yisrael.

Fast forward 3000+ years to today. The social unrest, unemployment, animosity towards those who “have,” and the ostentatious lifestyle of very many Jews – it’s all there today in the US. As King Shlomo says in Kohelet, “There is nothing new under the sun”.

But it is still not too late for the Jews of America to escape. The clock on the wall is ticking ever faster, and when the guillotine of history begins to fall, no one will be able to alter the outcome.

Things are going to change drastically beginning in November. If Hussein Obama will be re-elected, they will come about quickly and dramatically; if another candidate will be elected the downhill change will come about but a bit less quickly.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

If anything, I tend to see all of this less as manifestations of anti-Semitism than as a huge internecine battle between various visions of Judaism and Israeli politics. Atzmon sounds an ass but he also sounds like a wind-up artist gone too far.

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

Man so much shit gets projected onto Obama, I wonder if it ever fazes him at all?

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

... this rabbi thinks Obama is going to enslave rich Jewish people in America? Am I reading this correctly?

Chaka Collar, lemme rock you (DJP), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Without knowing anything about Atzmon beyond what's in this thread I would like to express very great confidence that his book is

a) bad and wrong and depressing;
b) not accurately paraphrased by Commentary.

Sixty-five years after the liberation of Auschwitz we should reclaim our history and ask why? Why were the Jews hated? Why did European people stand up against their next door neighbours? Why are the Jews hated in the Middle East, surely they had a chance to open a new page in their troubled history? If they genuinely planned to do so, as the early Zionists claimed, why did they fail? Why did America tighten its immigration laws amid the growing danger to European Jews? We should also ask for what purpose do the holocaust denial laws serve? What is the holocaust religion there to conceal? As long as we fail to ask questions, we will be subjected to Zionists and their Neocons agents' plots. We will continue killing in the name of Jewish suffering. We will maintain our complicity in Western imperialist crimes against humanity...

The Holocaust became the new Western religion. Unfortunately, it is the most sinister religion known to man. It is a license to kill, to flatten, no nuke, to wipe, to rape, to loot and to ethnically cleanse. It made vengeance and revenge into a Western value.

Not many people are aware that in March 1933, long before Hitler became the undisputed leader of Germany and began restricting the rights of German Jews, the American Jewish Congress announced a massive protest at Madison Square Gardens and called for an American boycott of German goods...

....Jewish texts tend to glaze over the fact that Hitler's March 28 1933, ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods, was an escalation in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.

Fagin is the ultimate plunderer, a child exploiter and usurer. Shylock is the blood-thirsty merchant. With Fagin and Shylock in mind Israeli barbarism and organ trafficking seem to be just other events in an endless hellish continuum.

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp I wouldn't treat anything a Kahane said as indicative of anything. They're crazy.

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

Sixty-five years after the liberation of Auschwitz we should reclaim our history and ask why? Why were the Jews hated? Why did European people stand up against their next door neighbours?

HEY BLACK PEOPLE ISN'T IT TIME YOU ASKED YOURSELVES WHY SO MANY OF YOU GOT SOLD AS SLAVES??

summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

I was at an ADL fund-raiser w/Foxman once. It was really weird and I kept worrying that they would suddenly notice the liberal goy in the back and turn on me.

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

Atzmon's probably crazy too. Good clarinet player though. (xxp)

Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

Waiting to hear from Alex in SF how he "defends it pretty handily."

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also, what's that organ trafficking charge?

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

Mordy, for me, that pretty much hits a) and b) -- I wouldn't say it does much to rehabilitate Hitler, or to flirt with Holocaust denial, but it is indeed bad, wrong, and depressing. I think it's pretty bad form for him to include fictional Jewish characters as evidence for the moral claims he's making against our co-religionists!

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

....Jewish texts tend to glaze over the fact that Hitler's March 28 1933, ordering a boycott against Jewish stores and goods, was an escalation in direct response to the declaration of war on Germany by the worldwide Jewish leadership.

If 'The Warburgs' teaches you anything about German Jewry, it's that they were incredibly proud Germans, too. Also 'declaration of war'?! I'm pretty sure 'the worldwide Jewish leadership' didn't have any means of conducting warfare and I'm also pretty sure that anti-Semites started this, not the other way around.

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp I wouldn't treat anything a Kahane said as indicative of anything. They're crazy.

Quite true, but this was posted on the FB feed of a relatively mainstream-Republican friend of mine. The narrative of "rich secular Jews who own everything inevitably bring havoc down upon themselves" is alive in all sorts of weird places, and while the Kahanists are often called crazy they are seldom called anti-Semites.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think the angle of that one is more "obama = pharaoh" than "jews have it coming"

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

HEY BLACK PEOPLE ISN'T IT TIME YOU ASKED YOURSELVES WHY SO MANY OF YOU GOT SOLD AS SLAVES??

― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague)

ffs can't you start a different thread?

teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

totally disagree, it is more "obama = pharaoh today, gop pres = pharaoh tomorrow, jews who stubbornly refuse to move to israel, become orthodox, and forswear material wealth are asking for trouble"

i agree with mordy that it's a fringy viewpoint tho

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

hm i see your point

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

yes but he also says that Obama is going to enslave Jews faster than any given Republican president

Chaka Collar, lemme rock you (DJP), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

tbf wasn't that one of his platforms?

teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

i may be misremembering that

teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

In any case it's a fairly low hurdle to clear.

Famous porn scenes like "shake that bear" (Phil D.), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Like, neither Bush I nor Bush II managed to enslave very many Jews at all!

Famous porn scenes like "shake that bear" (Phil D.), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

jews who stubbornly refuse to move to israel, become orthodox, and forswear material wealth are asking for trouble

Is this really all that uncommon amongst the fundamentalists in Judaism?

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

'become orthodox'

teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

What happened to make Paro wake up one morning and suggest enslaving the entire Jewish people? (It could not have been irrational anti-Semitism because Christianity and Islam were not yet even thoughts in anyone’s mind).

i have to admit this gave me a chuckle

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

orthodoxymoron?

teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

but he's comparing Obama to Romney/Paul/Gingrich/Santorum

I'm sorry, I just am still to this day amazed at how it seems that every group who has faced discrimination still has another go-to discriminated-against group that they blame all of their troubles on.

Chaka Collar, lemme rock you (DJP), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

like ilxuk and the tories

teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Waiting to hear from Alex in SF how he "defends it pretty handily.""

I meant he defended blurbing the book pretty handily. He didn't address any of Jeff Goldberg's specific "quotations" (not clear why he should.)

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

"I think it's pretty bad form for him to include fictional Jewish characters as evidence for the moral claims he's making against our co-religionists!"

Those are a whole bunch of separate quotes. They are not contextual to one another.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Also, what's that organ trafficking charge?"

Didn't you hear the story about the dude who woke up in hotel bathtub with his kidney missing? THAT WAS ISRAELIS THAT DID IT!

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

Tbf, Dan, Jews have tried several times over the course of their rather lengthy history to assimilate and the results haven't been all that great. Either they succeeded and are no longer Jews or there was some kind of backlash. I can see how Kahanists would think there's only safety in Eretz Yisrael following God's rules closely.

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

Police smash Israeli organ-trafficking ring

inappropriate roffles

Chaka Collar, lemme rock you (DJP), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I meant he defended blurbing the book pretty handily.

Where did he defend it? His defense seems to have consisted of: "I wrote what I wrote."

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

"...and I stand by it." He wrote a blurb, not a treatise.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

That's not a defense.

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Really? I think it works quite well given the circumstance.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

Why did you give a positive blurb to a book that contains anti-Semitic rhetoric?
I stand by my blurb.

Defended!

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

No, but seriously, are you just trolling or are you making some kind of really subtle point that I'm not picking up on?

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

Atzmon can't really win, though. He's a self-defined proud self-hating Jew. Okay, whatever but he also says shit like this,

"The Holocaust became the new Western religion. Unfortunately, it is the most sinister religion known to man. It is a license to kill, to flatten, no nuke, to wipe, to rape, to loot and to ethnically cleanse. It made vengeance and revenge into a Western value."

I will utterly defend his right to loathe Israel or religion or whatever but saying stupid shit like this should 'cause fewer ppl to listen not more. Vengeance and revenge have been part of humanity for eons and this thesis is basically a dim exegisis of Borges' 'Deutches Requiem'.

Quand le déshonneur est public, il faut que la vengeance soit (Michael White), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh wait he actually did defend it detail:

http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/09/25/mearsheimer_responds_to_goldbergs_latest_smear

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

I hadn't seen that defense. It looks extensive tho. I'll have to read it in a little bit.

Mordy, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

Vengeance and revenge have been part of humanity for eons and this thesis is basically a dim exegisis of Borges' 'Deutches Requiem'.

^^^

Full Frontal Newtity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

ugh i just spent a lot of my lunch hour looking into the whole josh block firing fiasco, and it's all very washington-y and sick

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

that basic gist of it, as far as i get it, is that block, former aipac spokesman and resident conservative (i think?) at the democratic-leaning truman center, didn't a little more than just accuse some people of being anti-semites. he had a whole big file of quotes from all of these dem-progressive writers painting them as anti-semites and was pushing them on a conservative listserv. not just nutso atzmon types but people who are, or work for, washington liberals in good standing. so basically the whole town turned on him.

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

glenn greenwald has several hundred words on it if you're interested

Critique of Pure Moods (goole), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 19:48 (2 years ago) Permalink


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