have you ever worked on a farm, hurting?
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:05 (twelve years ago) link
Working indoors for long hours under intense pressure inhaling chemicals that lead to your hands shaking uncontrollably, fwiw
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:16 (twelve years ago) link
and I can tell an equally harsh story about working from dawn til nightfall outside under a harsh beating sun just to come home to even more destitute conditions. what's your point?
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:24 (twelve years ago) link
it's completely moot because lots of people clearly are choosing the factories in preference to the paddy fields
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:26 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not making a point! Except that I was wondering if foxconn workers (some of whom are committing suicide over conditions) are really sitting in the factories going "man this sure beats the hell out of rice paddy labor" or whether it's more just the higher wages that attracts them because surplus wage = being able to imagine a future of not doing that kind of labor.
As far as them choosing, I agree, but even that is worth questioning, because people's "choices" aren't always so simple -- e.g. a rural poor person can wind up going very far away for better prospects, realizing the prospects aren't quite as wonderful as promised, and not be in a position to return.
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:32 (twelve years ago) link
'factory worker at foxconn' doesn't rank very highly on the list of 'shittiest jobs in china' tbh
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:32 (twelve years ago) link
yes to all that
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:33 (twelve years ago) link
just fwiw i've farmed, fished and factory worked and farming > fishing > factory but i'd not run back to any of them
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:35 (twelve years ago) link
there are recycling centers in china where children are paid to burn plastic w/ a lighter, determine what kind of plastic it is from the smell it gives off, and toss the piece into the appropriate pile
\O_o/
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:35 (twelve years ago) link
well if it keeps them outta the schools
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:36 (twelve years ago) link
I protested the conditions at my local Apple store.
It worked out well, as I could do my protesting while standing in line for the new release iPhone.
― Lava lamp, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:41 (twelve years ago) link
ZING for iphone
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 13:44 (twelve years ago) link
i like this kid, hes got moxie
― max, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 14:00 (twelve years ago) link
the this american life ep is actually a really good introduction to foxconn's greatest hits right up until it takes a turn for the repulsive and trots out kristof & krugman in the interest of 'balance' to tell us how sweatshops are actually awesome and cool, instead of barbaric and anti-human. the worst part is when glass asks the audience if we should feel 'weird' about being complicit in mass exploitation, like it's an awkward moment on seinfeld or something
― Hungry4Ass, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 15:03 (twelve years ago) link
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/5/8/1241792015854/Friedrich-Engels-001.jpg
^ dude called it in 1844
― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 15:16 (twelve years ago) link
We're not talking about one guy that swallowed the bait, we're talking many millions of people.
― lukas, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:14 (twelve years ago) link
sometimes people are making a decision between two pretty shitty lives
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:16 (twelve years ago) link
I suspect that this thread is a bit mis-named, as it makes the assumption that all overseas manufacturing in developing countries is hideously exploitative.
I also find myself pondering one of the world's great questions - when manufacturing in Britain, the USA, Germany and so on was in its hideously exploitative phase, workers reacted by forming trade unions, often in the face of extreme hostility from factory owners and their friends in positions of political power. I wonder why this does not happen so much now.
― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
employers weren't in the position to shut down production and open up a factory in another country in a day
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:24 (twelve years ago) link
― iatee, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:16 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Right. And I think it's important also not to lose sight of the larger ways in which a system might be making things worse for people. Job X > Job Y should not be the discussion ender. Is job x part of a sustainable upward trend in conditions? How did we get to the situation where job x and job y were the only choices in the first place, and do more job x's mean a trend away from the choices being that bleak in the long run?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but I would like to know them.
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:35 (twelve years ago) link
can they do this now? really?
― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:36 (twelve years ago) link
And also, is it possible to posit some kind of workable universal floor in terms of what we consider humane work? And is there any way to actually make such a thing economically viable?
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:36 (twelve years ago) link
One thing that the nytimes article barely touches on is the fact that even if we wanted to return to a hideously exploitive foxconn style manufacturing in the states or UK we would have a hard time of it because of the lack of Manufacturing engineers. I n my experience; of all the engineering disciplines it is the hardest to recruit for and most likely to be filled by an immigrant. We've had an open slot for one for over 6 months now and I've come to the conclusion that it is easier to invent a cloning device to replicate our one (chinese) manufacturing engineer than to find one in the market.
I guess the point is that the infrastructure to support manufacturing is degraded to such a colossal extent that we need to open the immigration gates to get it back.
However to do that someone would need to set a long term strategic plan in motion and as far as manufacturing goes neither the US or UK has had one of those in over 30 years.
In answer to DV's question:
I suspect that the current exploitative factories stay ahead of the curve wrt to maintaining the level of tolerable exploitation. It's been noticeable over the last few years, where the chinese labour market has been tightening, that wages and conditions have been improving and there are (admittedly rare) examples of strikes and other forms of unrest. The chinese are learning from history. (external pressures from consumer economies have also shifted the needle)
I'd love to see a graph that baselines real wages for England in 1750 and China in 1980 and see how much faster wage growth in China goes. (throw on trade volume and population curves as other factors as well)
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:39 (twelve years ago) link
u shd read it.
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:39 (twelve years ago) link
And I think it's important also not to lose sight of the larger ways in which a system might be making things worse for people.
I do agree with this line of thinking, fwiw, it's just that I think in this specific instance we should acknowledge that economic growth in China clearly has raised ordinary people's incomes. That's not to say that there isn't something deeply problematic about how China's path to growth has had a worldwide impact on the balance of power between capital and labor.
― lukas, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:45 (twelve years ago) link
because of the lack of Manufacturing engineers. I n my experience; of all the engineering disciplines it is the hardest to recruit for and most likely to be filled by an immigrant. We've had an open slot for one for over 6 months now and I've come to the conclusion that it is easier to invent a cloning device to replicate our one (chinese) manufacturing engineer than to find one in the market.
Have experienced a similar phenomenon at my (NYC) company. Applicants from Greece, India... However, our US engineers start morphing into mfg engineers pretty soon as we send them to China for factory visits several times a year...
― Axolotl with an Atlatl (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:51 (twelve years ago) link
some could argue that sitting in a chair for 40 hours a week in a bleak office isn't humane.
'economically viable' is about as fuzzy a concept as humane. could 'we' have everything we need in a world where nobody worked more than 40/h weeks. sure. could 'we' have everything we want? the 'we' is in quotes because a large % of the world still doesn't care whether they have to pay $100 or $800 for an ipad, they're busy worrying about clean drinking water etc.
ultimatelly the biggest moral problems imo:a. everyone on earth who's still living in destitute povertyb. maintaining economic growth in a world w/ limited resources + global warming etc.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:55 (twelve years ago) link
― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:21 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark
feel like the political situation in USA/UK - that whole democratic representation thing - probably contributed
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:56 (twelve years ago) link
― lukas, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:45 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark
this is true - but some groups of people's incomes have been raised more than others. the problem of what to do with farmers and migrant workers, who off the top of my head probably constitute of 1/2 to 2/3 of china's population, is still unanswered.
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:57 (twelve years ago) link
also when the worst exploitation was taking place in those countries it was entirely in-house, there was no client company from outside pressuring the governments to turn a blind eye or worse
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 17:59 (twelve years ago) link
maintaining economic growth in a world w/ limited resources + global warming etc.
not an economist but it feels to me like the problem is not maintaining growth so much as having a growth-dependent system at all?
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:00 (twelve years ago) link
well at the very least getting people outta poverty requires growth
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:01 (twelve years ago) link
or redistribution
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:03 (twelve years ago) link
sorta. you can't redistribute an apartment building to africa.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:04 (twelve years ago) link
yet
*ponders*
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:04 (twelve years ago) link
focus on growth reliancy has always troubled me, encourages boom/bust cycles, increases pressure to provide proper checks & balances. What's the economy running from here.
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:07 (twelve years ago) link
also economic growth can be a lot of different things. I can spend $30 on 30 iphone apps or mp3s or whatever and, ignoring what happens to that money afterwards, I'm 'contributing to economic growth' without seriously contributing to emissions. or I can spend the $30 on gas and go for a drive.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:08 (twelve years ago) link
xp nope, but cmon now, if only there were some method of storage and transportation of asset wealth hmmm
― teaky frigger (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:08 (twelve years ago) link
basically the problem isn't 'economic growth' the problem is energy dependent economic growth and there's some debate about how closely they correlate. there's pretty good evidence that it's 'pretty damn closely' but I don't think that has to be the case forever.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:10 (twelve years ago) link
yeah but in periods when the economy isn't experiencing "growth" financial transactions are still constantly taking place. here in the free world people don't actually start starving because the economy's in recession.
again i'm admittedly an economic illiterate but surely the point is that growth is only an important motor for certain kinds of economies, which are replaceable with a different model in theory if not perhaps in fact
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:11 (twelve years ago) link
― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:36 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark
probably the only rule that everybody can universally agree on is that you be 'properly compensated' in proportion to the work you do
if you are, how much you want to 'work' is up to you
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:12 (twelve years ago) link
that just moves the ball to another cup. what's 'properly compensated'? what does a human being need to live? etc.
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:17 (twelve years ago) link
I just mean that nobody thinks it's bad that we americans allow some people to work 100 hour work weeks because hey, we're paying them six figure salaries or higher!
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:18 (twelve years ago) link
I think it's bad!
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:18 (twelve years ago) link
mostly in the big picture cultural sense tho
what we really are some philosopher kings who will govern wisely and prevent us from excess
― dayo, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:19 (twelve years ago) link
yeah but iirc that entails shooting all yr musicians oh hang on
― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:20 (twelve years ago) link
often those people who work 100h weeks and making 6 figures don't believe that they're properly compensated
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/01/goldman-sachs-bonus-day-is-a-bloobath.html
― iatee, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 18:21 (twelve years ago) link
and are