overseas manufacturing in developing countries

I know amurricans are all "50 cents an hour??? omg!" but all in all the average foxconn salary is not that much lower than the average college graduate's salary in china, sadly

gonna repost this, documentary made about foxconn migrant workers

http://vimeo.com/27982653

Sure. I would imagine that it's much more about the prospect of higher wages = save/send money home = upward mobility (or at least the perception of it) rather than "working in a foxconn factory is easier" which I don't buy.

i can believe working indoors in a factory for long hours under intense pressure is better than the physical grind of working in a paddy tbh

have you ever worked on a farm, hurting?

Working indoors for long hours under intense pressure inhaling chemicals that lead to your hands shaking uncontrollably, fwiw

and I can tell an equally harsh story about working from dawn til nightfall outside under a harsh beating sun just to come home to even more destitute conditions. what's your point?

it's completely moot because lots of people clearly are choosing the factories in preference to the paddy fields

I'm not making a point! Except that I was wondering if foxconn workers (some of whom are committing suicide over conditions) are really sitting in the factories going "man this sure beats the hell out of rice paddy labor" or whether it's more just the higher wages that attracts them because surplus wage = being able to imagine a future of not doing that kind of labor.

As far as them choosing, I agree, but even that is worth questioning, because people's "choices" aren't always so simple -- e.g. a rural poor person can wind up going very far away for better prospects, realizing the prospects aren't quite as wonderful as promised, and not be in a position to return.

'factory worker at foxconn' doesn't rank very highly on the list of 'shittiest jobs in china' tbh

yes to all that

just fwiw i've farmed, fished and factory worked and farming > fishing > factory but i'd not run back to any of them

there are recycling centers in china where children are paid to burn plastic w/ a lighter, determine what kind of plastic it is from the smell it gives off, and toss the piece into the appropriate pile

\O_o/

well if it keeps them outta the schools

I protested the conditions at my local Apple store.

It worked out well, as I could do my protesting while standing in line for the new release iPhone.

ZING for iphone

i like this kid, hes got moxie

the this american life ep is actually a really good introduction to foxconn's greatest hits right up until it takes a turn for the repulsive and trots out kristof & krugman in the interest of 'balance' to tell us how sweatshops are actually awesome and cool, instead of barbaric and anti-human. the worst part is when glass asks the audience if we should feel 'weird' about being complicit in mass exploitation, like it's an awkward moment on seinfeld or something

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/5/8/1241792015854/Friedrich-Engels-001.jpg

^ dude called it in 1844

As far as them choosing, I agree, but even that is worth questioning, because people's "choices" aren't always so simple -- e.g. a rural poor person can wind up going very far away for better prospects, realizing the prospects aren't quite as wonderful as promised, and not be in a position to return.

We're not talking about one guy that swallowed the bait, we're talking many millions of people.

sometimes people are making a decision between two pretty shitty lives

I suspect that this thread is a bit mis-named, as it makes the assumption that all overseas manufacturing in developing countries is hideously exploitative.

I also find myself pondering one of the world's great questions - when manufacturing in Britain, the USA, Germany and so on was in its hideously exploitative phase, workers reacted by forming trade unions, often in the face of extreme hostility from factory owners and their friends in positions of political power. I wonder why this does not happen so much now.

employers weren't in the position to shut down production and open up a factory in another country in a day

sometimes people are making a decision between two pretty shitty lives

― iatee, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:16 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Right. And I think it's important also not to lose sight of the larger ways in which a system might be making things worse for people. Job X > Job Y should not be the discussion ender. Is job x part of a sustainable upward trend in conditions? How did we get to the situation where job x and job y were the only choices in the first place, and do more job x's mean a trend away from the choices being that bleak in the long run?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but I would like to know them.

employers weren't in the position to shut down production and open up a factory in another country in a day

can they do this now? really?

And also, is it possible to posit some kind of workable universal floor in terms of what we consider humane work? And is there any way to actually make such a thing economically viable?

One thing that the nytimes article barely touches on is the fact that even if we wanted to return to a hideously exploitive foxconn style manufacturing in the states or UK we would have a hard time of it because of the lack of Manufacturing engineers. I n my experience; of all the engineering disciplines it is the hardest to recruit for and most likely to be filled by an immigrant. We've had an open slot for one for over 6 months now and I've come to the conclusion that it is easier to invent a cloning device to replicate our one (chinese) manufacturing engineer than to find one in the market.

I guess the point is that the infrastructure to support manufacturing is degraded to such a colossal extent that we need to open the immigration gates to get it back.

However to do that someone would need to set a long term strategic plan in motion and as far as manufacturing goes neither the US or UK has had one of those in over 30 years.

In answer to DV's question:

I suspect that the current exploitative factories stay ahead of the curve wrt to maintaining the level of tolerable exploitation. It's been noticeable over the last few years, where the chinese labour market has been tightening, that wages and conditions have been improving and there are (admittedly rare) examples of strikes and other forms of unrest. The chinese are learning from history. (external pressures from consumer economies have also shifted the needle)

I'd love to see a graph that baselines real wages for England in 1750 and China in 1980 and see how much faster wage growth in China goes. (throw on trade volume and population curves as other factors as well)

I suspect that this thread is a bit mis-named, as it makes the assumption that all overseas manufacturing in developing countries is hideously exploitative.

u shd read it.

And I think it's important also not to lose sight of the larger ways in which a system might be making things worse for people.

I do agree with this line of thinking, fwiw, it's just that I think in this specific instance we should acknowledge that economic growth in China clearly has raised ordinary people's incomes. That's not to say that there isn't something deeply problematic about how China's path to growth has had a worldwide impact on the balance of power between capital and labor.

because of the lack of Manufacturing engineers. I n my experience; of all the engineering disciplines it is the hardest to recruit for and most likely to be filled by an immigrant. We've had an open slot for one for over 6 months now and I've come to the conclusion that it is easier to invent a cloning device to replicate our one (chinese) manufacturing engineer than to find one in the market.

Have experienced a similar phenomenon at my (NYC) company. Applicants from Greece, India... However, our US engineers start morphing into mfg engineers pretty soon as we send them to China for factory visits several times a year...

And also, is it possible to posit some kind of workable universal floor in terms of what we consider humane work? And is there any way to actually make such a thing economically viable?

some could argue that sitting in a chair for 40 hours a week in a bleak office isn't humane.

'economically viable' is about as fuzzy a concept as humane. could 'we' have everything we need in a world where nobody worked more than 40/h weeks. sure. could 'we' have everything we want? the 'we' is in quotes because a large % of the world still doesn't care whether they have to pay $100 or $800 for an ipad, they're busy worrying about clean drinking water etc.

ultimatelly the biggest moral problems imo:
a. everyone on earth who's still living in destitute poverty
b. maintaining economic growth in a world w/ limited resources + global warming etc.

I also find myself pondering one of the world's great questions - when manufacturing in Britain, the USA, Germany and so on was in its hideously exploitative phase, workers reacted by forming trade unions, often in the face of extreme hostility from factory owners and their friends in positions of political power. I wonder why this does not happen so much now.

― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:21 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark

feel like the political situation in USA/UK - that whole democratic representation thing - probably contributed

I do agree with this line of thinking, fwiw, it's just that I think in this specific instance we should acknowledge that economic growth in China clearly has raised ordinary people's incomes. That's not to say that there isn't something deeply problematic about how China's path to growth has had a worldwide impact on the balance of power between capital and labor.

― lukas, Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:45 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is true - but some groups of people's incomes have been raised more than others. the problem of what to do with farmers and migrant workers, who off the top of my head probably constitute of 1/2 to 2/3 of china's population, is still unanswered.

feel like the political situation in USA/UK - that whole democratic representation thing - probably contributed

also when the worst exploitation was taking place in those countries it was entirely in-house, there was no client company from outside pressuring the governments to turn a blind eye or worse

maintaining economic growth in a world w/ limited resources + global warming etc.

not an economist but it feels to me like the problem is not maintaining growth so much as having a growth-dependent system at all?

well at the very least getting people outta poverty requires growth

or redistribution

sorta. you can't redistribute an apartment building to africa.

yet

*ponders*

focus on growth reliancy has always troubled me, encourages boom/bust cycles, increases pressure to provide proper checks & balances. What's the economy running from here.

also economic growth can be a lot of different things. I can spend $30 on 30 iphone apps or mp3s or whatever and, ignoring what happens to that money afterwards, I'm 'contributing to economic growth' without seriously contributing to emissions. or I can spend the $30 on gas and go for a drive.

xp nope, but cmon now, if only there were some method of storage and transportation of asset wealth hmmm

basically the problem isn't 'economic growth' the problem is energy dependent economic growth and there's some debate about how closely they correlate. there's pretty good evidence that it's 'pretty damn closely' but I don't think that has to be the case forever.

yeah but in periods when the economy isn't experiencing "growth" financial transactions are still constantly taking place. here in the free world people don't actually start starving because the economy's in recession.

again i'm admittedly an economic illiterate but surely the point is that growth is only an important motor for certain kinds of economies, which are replaceable with a different model in theory if not perhaps in fact

And also, is it possible to posit some kind of workable universal floor in terms of what we consider humane work? And is there any way to actually make such a thing economically viable?

― frogBaSeball (Hurting 2), Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:36 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark

probably the only rule that everybody can universally agree on is that you be 'properly compensated' in proportion to the work you do

if you are, how much you want to 'work' is up to you

probably the only rule that everybody can universally agree on is that you be 'properly compensated' in proportion to the work you do

that just moves the ball to another cup. what's 'properly compensated'? what does a human being need to live? etc.

I just mean that nobody thinks it's bad that we americans allow some people to work 100 hour work weeks because hey, we're paying them six figure salaries or higher!

I think it's bad!

mostly in the big picture cultural sense tho