Scottish Independence - classic or dud

Devo Max seems like a pretty obvious winner if it's a three way vote. What I don't get - and I'm probably being thick/missing the point - is, surely if it's included as an option then this will split the 'yes' vote and make independence even less likely? Does wee Eck know this, and is he just using full independence as a sort of red herring to gain more power for holyrood? I guess this is pretty unlikely given his zeal, but I can't really work it out otherwise..

Even if I know bugger all about all this, I find it quite exciting.

cameron's said he'll only countenance a yes/no all-or-nothing vote iirc

Devo max splits the no vote more than the yes vote. Polling suggests majority of Scots against independence, but would vote for Devo max. Having both questions rules out the status quo having a chance of winning.

Interesting what happens if 60% vote for independence and 80%vote for Devo max. So much depends on the wording.

Ah, that makes sense!

...and probably sums me up. But hey I've lived in England for a while now so maybe self-interest plays a part in that.

cameron's said he'll only countenance a yes/no all-or-nothing vote iirc

Is he trying to break up the Union or he just a pig-ignorant Toryboy cunt? I don't know why the Labour Party would support restricting the referendum to yes/no (obv. the Lib Dems have no choice/ principles), other than the fact that Salmond makes them shit their pants.

he's trying to force through a BINDING yes/no vote that he knows will result in "no"

what about non-Scots living in Scotland?

― little blue souvenir (Noodle Vague), Monday, 16 January 2012 17:58 (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

they live here they should have their say

― Jimmy Riddle Orchestra (Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker), Monday, 16 January 2012 18:01 (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Thanks for that :-)

Having lived in Scotland for nearly six years now, my impression is that, understandably, Scots don't like posh Toryboy Englsih cnuts meddling in Scottish affairs, so Cameron's current bullying tactics will only push some undecided voters towards full independence. I'm sure Cameron is aware of this, but I can't quite work out why he's doing it (secretly wants to break up the Union? Hates Salmond beyond all reason or common sense?) I'm not a huge fan of Salmond myself - he seems like a zealot, and a xenophobe - but I wld never underestimate his political savvy (nor wld I underestimate the total fucking uselessness of the Labour Party in Scotland, and England.)

he's trying to force through a BINDING yes/no vote that he knows will result in "no"

He knows it? I think, for once in his life, Cameron might consider being a little less cocky.

Kellner had a good post on the voting permutations yesterday: http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-kellner/four-ways-to-cook-scotlands-referendum

I like how Condorcet seems to be like the Rock Paper Scissors of voting systems.

tom d. apparently it's pretty open and shut that any vote on full independence will lose i.e. polls have hovered around 35% in favour for years

Think you'll find they've crept up since Cameron stuck his oar punt in

ive actually heard people talking about needing passports to get into england and i know there's gonna be no end to the shite peddled

given that you don't need passports to go from Ireland to the UK, the needing a passport to cross the inner British border would be unlikely.

Unless Scotland joined Schengen, of course. But Scotland would be unlikely to join Schengen, for the same reasons Ireland didn't (viz not wanting to make travelling to and from the UK a hassle and not wanting to have to fortify border with UK).

sure Cameron is aware of this, but I can't quite work out why he's doing it

no more Scottish MPs = Tory majority in Westminster forever?

... that's not actually true, living in England it just seems that way

the UK wouldn't really have any choice -- Sterling's freely traded. It just wouldn't have to support the banks/act as a lender of last resort.

I'm not sure of this - when Ireland had parity with sterling the Bank of England did not operate as our lender of last resort, at least I don't think so.

From the Irish experience, sticking with sterling raises the mildly inconvenient prospect of Scottish notes not being accepted in the UK even though UK notes will still be accepted in Scotland. But don't Londoners sniff at Scottish banknotes already?

I don't know, possibly Cameron is convinced he can walk on water. He's so used to slapping round Little Ed in front of a bunch of braying yahoos in the Commons, and getting Clegg to debase himself and his party has proven to be a cakewalk so maybe he just thinks Salmond is more of the same.

when Ireland had parity with sterling the Bank of England did not operate as our lender of last resort, at least I don't think so.

Yes, that's what I'm saying -- the UK wouldn't have to operate as Scotland's lender of last resort, whatever they decide to do.

That said, Ireland didn't stick with Sterling -- the punt was a separate currency that was just pegged to Sterling until the 1970s. What Scotland is talking about doing is just continuing to use actual Sterling.

the mildly inconvenient prospect of Scottish notes not being accepted in the UK even though UK notes will still be accepted in Scotland. But don't Londoners sniff at Scottish banknotes already?

... they do more than sniff, they sometimes don't accept them and I imagine trying to pass a Scottish banknote in Little Ottlesby-by-the-Marsh or wherever wouldn't get you far. I think we had a discussion about this before on ILX, Scottish banknotes are not legal tender in England but then neither are English banknotes, only coins are legal tender and have to be accepted

Out of interest, what would the UK be called if Scotland weren't part of it?

xp

only a limited amount of coins and only in payment of certain kinds of debt. a shop, of course, has no obligation to trade with a customer at all.

xp

AngloMax

The Queen would still be our sovereign, so the Kingdom would still be United, I assume

I was wrong..

Bank of England notes are legal tender in England and Wales and are issued in the denominations of £5, £10, £20 and £50. English banknotes can always be redeemed at the Bank of England even if discontinued. Scottish and Northern Irish bank notes are not legal tender in any part of the United Kingdom.

Scottish and Northern Irish bank notes are not legal tender in any part of the United Kingdom.

LOL, yeah, thanks for that guys

Scottish and Northern Irish bank notes aren't backed by anything tho? They're the equivalent of Disneyland fun money or something.

maybe Scottish bank notes cd be backed by the RBS oh wait

They say Sterling on them... maybe as a tribute to Sterling Morrison, Glasgow having more Velvet Underground albums per household than any other city in Europe

Out of interest, what would the UK be called if Scotland weren't part of it?

at the moment it is the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland (I think). I suspect rump UK would be called the United Kingdom of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, UK for short.

I don't know why the Labour Party would support restricting the referendum to yes/no

because the Scottish Labour party pathologically hate the SNP and see them as the 'enemy' and not the Tories. Any defeat for Salmond would please them. Despite cutting their noses off etc.

In a Scottish context, the SNP are the Labour party's main enemy.

If Scotland did become independent, its politics would be a bit strange. Three left or centre left parties taking up almost all the votes, and a tiny right wing party waving its "we're here too" flag. This is a bit odd for somewhere that has an economy heavily based on financial services (and shortbread).

Cue blah blah blah posts about how the Liberals and/or Labour are not really left or centre left.

Scottish and Northern Irish bank notes aren't backed by anything tho?

I hate to break it to you, but the Bank of England went off the gold standard in the 1920s, so English bank notes are not backed by anything either.

Cue blah blah blah posts about how the Liberals and/or Labour are not really left or centre left.

You missed out the SNP. Have you seen where there parliamentary constituencies are? You think Moray, Perth and North Perthshire, Banff and Buchan are hotbeds of socialism?

Tories are the second placed party in 4 out of the 6 SNP Westminster seats

"polls have hovered around 35% in favour for years"

i'm guessing pro independence people are probably significantly more likely to get out and vote. i'd say we're perilously close to saying yes to this madness.

it is true that since the UK government went off the gold standard Sterling has been a purely imaginary currency, tbf

Is Paxman on drugs or something?

I know fuck all about the local conditions.

What's motivating Cameron to make this an issue?

Gus O'Donnell. The Civil Service. Osborne. Until a couple of weeks ago Cameron thought Scotland was some place up north where his friends go to do some grouse shooting once a year.

I remember reading about how some Scottish people were annoyed because Paxman referred to Burns as a writer of doggerel. I thought.... mmmm.

tbf i think Paxman was on drugs or something

I remember reading about how some Scottish people were annoyed because Paxman referred to Burns as a writer of doggerel. I thought.... mmmm.

― The New Dirty Vicar

whether or not you agree with that as a description of his work it was in step with several jibes he is known to make at scotland in general, the most notorious being his comparing the preponderance of scots in westminster to british rule of india. a very enjoyable experience for me was watching him on "who do you think you are?" crying when he found out his great, or great great, grandmother had been a destitute glaswegian. take that paxo, you cunt.

Paxman's talent for zinging scumbags is frequently mistaken for genuine positive genius by a chunk of the chatterati, but i've rarely seen evidence of his towering intellect.

Would this in any way affect the 2012 shooting schedule of Doctor Who? I think that's probably the most important consideration...

Paxman's talent for zinging scumbags is frequently mistaken for genuine positive genius by a chunk of the chatterati, but i've rarely seen evidence of his towering intellect.

― summer sun, something's begun, but uh-oh those tumblr whites (Noodle Vague), Thursday, January 26, 2012 8:32 PM (38 minutes ago)

rarely have i seen the word never more unfortunately elided

paxman is a cunt, a doughy minded lowland british shithead, and i hope he distends so i can call him a fat cunt

I just watched part of that. Wtf?! Paxman comes across as a total twat.

plue sa chonge

Cameron launching his campaign to break up the Union

First Rangers, now the United Kingdom... what fresh hell awaits for Unionists?

SO glad that other people hate Paxman. Dude is a fucking bully.

i think i used to see religious conflict (and yes, generally in the form of anti-catholic bigotry) in the west of scotland as some kind of self-explanatory toxic given, but now when i return and encounter it i feel completely at a loss when it comes to having any understanding of it. the obvious element of people with no particular religious commitment and no particular political commitment suddenly having vast reserves of both when it comes to e.g. the question of unionism is absurd but explicable in the typical prejudicial othering manner, but when in most aspects of everyday life catholics and protestants are seamlessly integrated it seems to come down to some baffling inchoate bigotry towards friends, family members, husbands and wives, which i just cannot get my head around.