do you have to set wooden type and letterpress your posts onto fine cotton paper, or do you whistle the letters into your modem directly?
― whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:38 (twelve years ago) link
i think there is a risk of needless over-generalization here, if we are to assume that 'handcrafted' and 'artisinal' and 'responsibly sourced materials' are completely hollow marketing terms. i mean, stop me if i become stupidly obvious here, but customers are not only buying a product but buying into a set of values expressed by the means of its manufacture, if not the quality of the product itself, but I don't necessarily think you can generalize that those values are empty or false or unworthy.
― elmo argonaut, Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:41 (twelve years ago) link
what if people en masse can no longer be relied upon to objectively judge quality and craftsmanship? i.e. the yelper effect
― ah, how quaint (Matt P), Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:44 (twelve years ago) link
lol no longer?! when have they ever
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:50 (twelve years ago) link
etsy.com
― turkey in the straw (x2) (remy bean), Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:51 (twelve years ago) link
Can't wait till I can post some recycled jokes itt via an artisinal computer running on sustainably sourced electricity
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:55 (twelve years ago) link
can we talk about the $116 scissors? http://www.bestmadeco.com/collections/frontpage/products/shears
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:56 (twelve years ago) link
My sister has insanely expensive scissors (she cuts hair)
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:57 (twelve years ago) link
i think it gets complicated when supposedly extrinsic use value turns into fluffier or harder-to-define symbolic value. i mean, there is "this is going to last longer and work better, and i can prove it with the numbers", but what exactly the numbers prove can get a little lost on the way somehow. and now you do get the sense that at the ass-end of this stuff, both makers and purchasers are trying to inscribe some moral dimension into what never really had a moral dimension in the first place and what are really just the same market principles by appealing to 100 years ago or whatever.
i think a big part of the problem comes down to locating good/bad in materials/products themselves, when it's the organization/structure responsible for the material/product that needs to be held accountable. it's like, the world's too big and complicated, but that looks handmade i think i'll buy it. fuck i feel better already!
― ah, how quaint (Matt P), Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:57 (twelve years ago) link
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, November 3, 2011 5:57 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
well that makes sense! these are just, like, scissors for cutting paper or whatever you use scissor for
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 3 November 2011 21:59 (twelve years ago) link
These days? Stabbing myself in the head, mostly
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:00 (twelve years ago) link
― call all destroyer, Thursday, November 3, 2011 2:56 PM (3 minutes ago)
If you are "crafty", you can find these online with shipping from Japan for ~$60. Still $60 scissors, lol.
― citation needed (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:01 (twelve years ago) link
I will start a new service that will artisanally search the internet for you by hand and find you the best prices.
― citation needed (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:02 (twelve years ago) link
hand-typed searches
― ah, how quaint (Matt P), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:02 (twelve years ago) link
i went into michaels last week to buy scissors and was p stunned by how many pairs of exorbitantly priced scissors they were selling
― J0rdan S., Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:03 (twelve years ago) link
created in my bedroom
― ah, how quaint (Matt P), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:03 (twelve years ago) link
my fav part is the description:
We have gone through at least a dozen mediocre pairs of scissors at Best Made: they lose their edge, are cumbersome to handle, or have flimsy plastic handles that wouldn't pass muster at nursery school.
i would humbly suggest the problem is not with the scissors!
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:04 (twelve years ago) link
one take on our annoying future
http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/03/07/200135/the-yoga-instructor-economy/
― goole, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:07 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.artisanalpencilsharpening.com/
― Stevie T, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:09 (twelve years ago) link
Mark,
My uncle makes a musical instrument traditionally manufactured in a fairly high number of pieces kluged together to the rough specifications of the musician. Kind of ... plug and play, mix and match. Uncle J. figured out a (very ingenious) way to manufacture the instrument bespoke, in (essentially) one large piece without the valves, fittings, and joints that are prone to failure in the ordinary process. Uncle J.'s pieces take a lot longer to make, are highly, highly customized to the playing style and needs of each musician, and require an extreme level of skill, experience and precision to manufacture successfully. The instruments are pricey once-in-a-lifetime purchases for professional players of the instrument, and each one comes with a 'forever' guarantee and unquestioning repair work from J. and his assistants. J. worked for 15 years making instruments the traditional way for [the equivalent of Suzuki] before going into business and getting a name for himself. The former apprentice's instruments appear to be crafted in the same style as my Uncle's instruments, but they're just a modified (for aesthetic effect) version of the traditional process; prone to wear, fatigue and failure. While my uncle's marketing acumen is undoubtedly less polished than his apprentice, I don't think the marketing is entirely at fault. There's a burden to be carried by the consumer as well as the producer, and it concerns the incoherent valuing of anything with artistic credibility over experience and workmanship.
For the record, I never said my argument was new. It's old-fashioned, kind of in the tradition of "slow food," and it does owe a debt to the old ways are the good ways camp. But I genuinely believe that when we're bragging about the moral superiority of – say – an artisan-made ottoman crafted from locally sourced Alpaca fibers ($500) vs. a Walmart generic footrest in synthetic green ($30), what we're doing is, in an implicit part, stating that we value the work-hours of acculturated Western white people with good educations who can Talk Our Talk more than we value the work-hours of an anonymous poor Malaysian fella stapling gunny-sacks to a pile of coils. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't pay for quality, or fairly compensate skilled workers –– just that there's a class-sorting mechanism often apparent in the (sometimes) slimy categorizing of between craftsman/artisianal/handmade product.
― turkey in the straw (x2) (remy bean), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:10 (twelve years ago) link
Despite his often biting comments in the book, Weingarten is quick to point out that he’s not so different from that which he mocks. “This isn’t some jock-bully out to take down the hipsters,” he explains. “This is coming from someone who lives in Brooklyn, plays in noise bands, goes to Film Forum and Smorgasburg, and buys artisanal ketchup from Sir Kensington.”
― buzza, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:10 (twelve years ago) link
i need a locally-sourced, sustainable and renewable editor
― turkey in the straw (x2) (remy bean), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:12 (twelve years ago) link
this is the second time i've seen reference to whiney's artisanal ketchup buying; brb need to commit suicide
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:14 (twelve years ago) link
More like wbrb, eh?
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:16 (twelve years ago) link
"Are you a bad workman? With our hand-made artisanal tools, even you will be able to do your job adequately!" <-- am tempted to try this pitch out
xp yes I wasn't calling you out, just noting that hipsters didn't invent lying and cheating, and that words that confer value degrade pretty quickly in a commercial context -- as your uncle's former clients are presumably going to discover. "Artisanal" is already degraded: it means square pizzas! The judgment of quality is in the (sustained) use: there isn't actually a shortcut.
― mark s, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:16 (twelve years ago) link
what we're doing is, in an implicit part, stating that we value the work-hours of acculturated Western white people with good educations who can Talk Our Talk more than we value the work-hours of an anonymous poor Malaysian fella stapling gunny-sacks to a pile of coils
sorry but this is wrong
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:16 (twelve years ago) link
the idea that Walmart does not Talk Our Talk is ludicrous.
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:17 (twelve years ago) link
i know so so so many people who brag about never having set foot in a walmart. how is that ludicrous?
― turkey in the straw (x2) (remy bean), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:18 (twelve years ago) link
i.e. people who draw distinctions between shopping at pier one and target
I'm not really sure what your uncle's story has to do with, say, the aforementioned knifemaker or artisans in general. It was a shitty thing to do, but one asshole doesn't represent anyone other than himself (and local consumers who r dumb)
The knifemaker in the OP is right in the ballpark on what custom knives (of all sorts - chef's knives or pocket or w/e) cost - he's not calling himself an artisan for no reason and underbidding traditionalists.The guy who made my jeans isn't putting some old-timer who's been hand-making jeans for his entire life out of business.The guy who made an absurdly nice cabinet/shrine for a Buddhist center we remodeled rightly calls himself an artisan, and his work is amazing.
― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:19 (twelve years ago) link
Artisinal is just marketing borrowed from Latin languages where it means handmade.
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:19 (twelve years ago) link
these are different how
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:20 (twelve years ago) link
they aren't -- that's my point!
― turkey in the straw (x2) (remy bean), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:20 (twelve years ago) link
lol at "the yoga instructor economy." i've been thinking about dropping away from my current "career track" (i.e. what i paid 100k for a grad degree in) to become a personal trainer. 1) i think i'd be good at it, 2) i'd actually enjoy it, 3) if i was good enough and enjoyed it enough, maybe i could make some money doing it. otoh it's crowded out there! and oh yeah, i'm a liberal arts major.
what do we think about "life coaching"?
― ah, how quaint (Matt P), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:20 (twelve years ago) link
it seems to me your primary complaint is with marketing language and the associated inability of people to make informed decisions based upon it
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:21 (twelve years ago) link
i think that's what a lot of this discussion is about
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:22 (twelve years ago) link
Once the publishing industry collapses presumably freelance editorial services will be easier to find many xps to remy
― whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:22 (twelve years ago) link
i mean if you just want to talk about truly artisanal goods that provide tangible value over mass-produced equivalents and are fairly priced there's not really a lot to talk about
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:23 (twelve years ago) link
Pier 1 is not as evil politically as Target
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:24 (twelve years ago) link
okay, but just because marketing language creates an artificial and perhaps misleading distinction when there isn't one does not in fact preclude the possibility that there ARE goods that are well-made, locally ,by appropriately-compensated workers, and that this is type of product is preferable (for a number of reasons) to the mass-produced in near slave-labor conditions and then shipped around the world crap. Your issue is not with this distinction, it's with products that make false/spurious claims based on this distinction.
xp
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:24 (twelve years ago) link
facepalm
― ah, how quaint (Matt P), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:25 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not well-versed enough in the politics of either (I was referring more to their range of products and where they come from) but I'm curious what makes you say this
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:25 (twelve years ago) link
Appropriately-compensated?
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:26 (twelve years ago) link
Pier 1 doesn't make the same kinds of political contributions that Target does and Target donates primarily to Republicans
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:27 (twelve years ago) link
y'know, a living wage
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:28 (twelve years ago) link
can this conversation be had by americans
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:31 (twelve years ago) link
I understand the desire for a living wage or even just better wages but I am wary of second-guessing those labor markets. Would it be better to entirely forego products from some place because they don't pay wages I think fair and thus potentially deprive those workers of any wage at all or reduce the very advantage that they have in the global market?
Mind you, I'm not against socially ameliorative purchasing strategies, I'm just wary that 'fair trade' too might be a form of cynical marketing.
― Do you know what the secret of comity is? (Michael White), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:33 (twelve years ago) link
pfft the only product that doesn't involve cynical marketing is probably something made by someone you know and given to you for free, ie a homemade gift
― The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:36 (twelve years ago) link
"artisanal" is a word that's come back into fashion recently, but it's been in english usage for centuries: it was a distinction the arts and crafts movement popularised in the 19th century, to register approval of maker-knowledge they feared was vanishing, with the mass move to cities and the growth of factories and the machine-made; they wanted to differentiate skilled handwork from the unskilled work that (many) machines fostered. It probably comes from artigiano, but another possible source is artitianus (via artitus, past participle of artire, meaning to instruct in the arts)
(second derivation being key, since it's about a skill being passed on rather than lost)
― mark s, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:36 (twelve years ago) link
alright, but handwork has nearly always been associated with luxury in some products -- i'm thinking specifically of textiles, esp. handworked lace and embroidery -- because of the sheer amount of labor required to make them and make them well, and they are very easily distinguished from their machine-made equivalents. but that labor is also acknowledged to be tedious and even (literally) punishing.
a product made with attention to detail implies the wealth of the owner, and always has -- not just wealth, but class distinction and all the heightened discriminations that go along with it. you do not buy it because of its details, you buy them to demonstrate that you are the type of person who appreciates those details.
― elmo argonaut, Thursday, 3 November 2011 22:40 (twelve years ago) link