Jungle Rhythms

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zpost yeah that's a huge part of what I liked about it! There was a little-acknowledged dare-I-say-it jungle sensibility to stuff like this tune:

Actually not surprisingly the above sounds a lot like a more serious version of uk funky...

Tim F, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 11:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was too young to ever appreciate jungle beyond a 4-disc compilation from the supermarket I got on the cheap, I eagerly await this thread filling up.

ha ha ha ha jack my swag (boxedjoy), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 15:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's too bad les twins weren't around to make dance videos in the '90s

this is unusual for batman. (Jordan), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 15:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

This kind of stuff was my jam in the jungle days:

Chewshabadoo, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 15:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

Or on a less jump-up, deeper tip:

Chewshabadoo, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 15:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

not '90s, but this track hits a sweet spot between groove & variation, or consistency & complexity:

this is unusual for batman. (Jordan), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 15:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

that 4hero track is so epic

this is unusual for batman. (Jordan), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 15:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

This sprang to mind for some reason, Imo a very unique and original record, combining "Rolling" but minimal bristol style beats with a kind sickly sweet euphoric ambience and a whole range of weird screwed samples.

11 minutes long and the main section doesnt even start till 3:30 so feel free to skip ahead

dsb, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 16:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

You can't have one of these threads without Shy FX & UK Apachi - "Original Nuttah". I still remember thinking my entire head was melting the first time I heard this.

he carried yellow flowers (DJP), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 16:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

another face-melter from the (IMO) essential Law of the Jungle compilation: Junior Dan - "Heartless"

he carried yellow flowers (DJP), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 16:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere on ILX, but Raime's mix of old skool jungle for FACT is excellent: http://www.factmag.com/2011/10/17/fact-mix-292-raime/

1. Steve C and Monita – The Razors Edge – Skeleton Records 1994
2. DJ Buz – Slave – No U-Turn 1994
3. 4 Horsemen Of The Apocalypse – We Are The Future (Phantasy & Aphrodite Mix) – Tone Def 1994
4. Blame & Justice – Nightvision (D’Cruze Mix) – Moving Shadow 1994
5. Undercover Agent – Dubplate Circles – Juice 1996
6. Dillinja – Deadly Deep Subs Remix – Deadly Vinyl 1995
7. The Truper – Vol 1 Side B – Street Beats 1994
8. Doc Scott – It’s Yours – Metalheadz 1994
9. DJ Tamsin & The Monk – A Better Place (Baby Kane Remix) – White House Records 1994

MikoMcha, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 17:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

if lex of all people doesn't like this one then we should probably give up trying to convert him

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 17:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

also

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 17:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

miko yup it was mentioned in www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=35392 which is a nice supplement to this thread

zvookster, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

hmm All-time BEST Drum n' Bass/Jungle Mix ??

zvookster, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 18:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Wishing On A Star" is an excellent call

he carried yellow flowers (DJP), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 18:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah. and for pop remixes, this one is a favorite, less for the drums than the bassline at 3:00 -

this is unusual for batman. (Jordan), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 19:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

I love this one to death, too: Deep Blue - "The Helicopter Tune"

he carried yellow flowers (DJP), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 19:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

hahaha i'm loving these other aphrodite remixes - i got 5 on it!

this is unusual for batman. (Jordan), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 19:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't know if this is too much hardcore/breakbeat precursor than actual jungle/d&b but Lex, you should track down THE JOINT because it's 100% fantastic from start to finish.

he carried yellow flowers (DJP), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 19:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

dan, you've heard the 2 bad mice remix of helicopter, yes?

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yes! It's great!

I just posted every vid from The Joint that I could find on Youtube (the only one missing is the original "Mystic Stepper") on the ITR music thread btw

he carried yellow flowers (DJP), Wednesday, 26 October 2011 22:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol:

deep blue - "helicopter tune (2 bad mice remix)"

!!! Is this the version that made it onto the Speed Limit comps? If not, I MUST HEAR THIS.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, September 29, 2005

i'll see if i can ysi tomorrow dan. it's totally different.

― strng hlkngtn (dubplatestyle), Thursday, September 29, 2005

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 22:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

what did we ever do before youtube?

well, ysi, i guess.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Wednesday, 26 October 2011 22:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

great squiggly pascal track

blank, Thursday, 27 October 2011 02:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

is there a dj hype remix of "on and on"? that shit would rule

blank, Thursday, 27 October 2011 02:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

a legit jungle remix of "on and on" by anybody would rule, actually.

blank, Thursday, 27 October 2011 02:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

helicopter tune is a...tune

post, Thursday, 27 October 2011 04:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

People can talk about what they like in this thread of course, but I started it to talk about tunes with drums that really sing. Like this amazing early Source Direct tune "Fabric of Space", which really captures that moment in the trajectory from atmospheric jungle into, I dunno, post-techstep I guess, the same trajectory all the best and hardest Goldie tunes ever were on. The snares on this are so tactile and impacting!

Tim F, Thursday, 27 October 2011 12:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

ay ay ay

jed_, Thursday, 27 October 2011 19:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

since i've been "rinsing" it lately, chaps. cheerio.

jed_, Thursday, 27 October 2011 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

great thread, tim.

early source direct is great. 'snake style', 'bliss' and 'secret liasons' (not so early but still one of my top 5 jungle tunes). but i'm more of a mood nerd (if such thing exists) when it comes to jungle.

beat wise, always loved this dj crystl tune :

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/B6ZX5-TkOxA"; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

rusty_allen, Thursday, 27 October 2011 22:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha tim i was basically trying to coax lex into paying more attention to jungle by spoonful-of-sugar'ing it via tunes with elements i know he loves already.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 27 October 2011 22:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm not doing very well with these selections i'm afraid (three in) (didn't get to the end of any of them), i'd previously thought i just didn't know enough about d&b but i think i just don't like it :/

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 09:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

i don't like the way the beats...sound? i'm not putting it very well but they don't have any OOMPH to them

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 09:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

that "wishing on a star" track is pretty good though!

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 09:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

So being a 'sonix nerd' means rating Nightslugs, but disliking the entire genre of d&b and jungle (bar 'Wishing on a Star)? Seems weird. I feel bad for you :(

MikoMcha, Friday, 28 October 2011 09:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

how on earth are you meant to dance to jungle? it's like idm to me tbh

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 09:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

You either follow the snares high-road martial arts-style or go for skanking to the slow-down dubby basslines. Usually, a bit of both. Also, drugs.

MikoMcha, Friday, 28 October 2011 09:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

This would be my contribution, not sure if it sings enough for Tim though:

MikoMcha, Friday, 28 October 2011 10:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

With jungle you dance half-speed to the bass (the opposite of how I dance to dubstep, which is double-speed to the bass).

Are you more of a vocals rather than beats man Lex?

How about this:

Chewshabadoo, Friday, 28 October 2011 10:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

Guys I think you're on a hiding to nothing here (although it does genuinely surprise me that Lex isn't that interested in rhythm as a focal point of music in its own right).

Matt DC, Friday, 28 October 2011 10:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

the dillinja tune was okay, i like the moodiness of it

i like beats, i just need...steady beats when it comes to dance music

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 11:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

That's fair enough I suppose.

Matt DC, Friday, 28 October 2011 11:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is the only d&b tune i've genuinely loved

no lay's voice isn't just decoration, and the beats work so well with it

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 11:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

and there are so many awesome contrasting synth elements

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 11:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Haha that's total "empire state of mind" logic right there.

Tim F, Friday, 28 October 2011 11:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

in what way? no one's ever said "empire state of mind" is a good version of any genre (except maybe pop)

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 12:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

Lots of people think "empire state of mind" is a good rap tune because of Alicia Keys.

Tim F, Friday, 28 October 2011 14:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

well that's understandable? she is the only thing about it that miiiight push it into worthwhile territory

lex pretend, Friday, 28 October 2011 14:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

i listened to "inner city life" yesterday and really enjoyed it though

liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Thursday, 12 April 2012 07:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk, jungle was some of the first dance music i heard in the 90s. obv not in a clubbing context though.

I think this is kind of key though. I listened to a reasonable amount of erm "album dance" music in the mid-late 90s (Orbital, Aphex Twin, Goldie, The Chemical Bros, The Prodigy, Moby, BT, Deep Dish, Roni Size, Plaid, Lo-Fidelity Allstars... basically any dance music likely to get a big album review in Spin) and also stuff that I guess you could call jungle-pop (EBTG, Lamb) but I don't think I really cared about rhythm, or not in the same way, until I started dancing a lot.

Once I did, it was like the moment in The Wizard of Oz where the image switches from black & white to colour. Within a very short space of time I started to hear lots of things I hadn't heard both in music I wouldn't have liked previously and music that I already had liked. And it was really in that period that a lot of my unthinking musical prejudices (not so much convictions, more the way what I instinctively listen for in the music).

but it's not like house/techno is the only rhythm logic i can get into (going to street dance class really gave me a new insight into a lot of hip-hop rhythms, albeit ones i already liked, but in terms of how to hear them and move to them).

Exactly. Learning how you move to rhythms is a huge thing which i think can be entirely separate from simply enjoying them as a listener (esp. when they can be enjoyed in the context of songs).

I would hazard a guess that your approach to rhythm in dance music generally is less house/techno-ist than it is R&B-ist.

Tim F, Thursday, 12 April 2012 09:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Jungle is at the pointy end of this issue because it's difficult to background it, you either get it or it's a problem. Whereas it's a bit easier to simply tolerate or passively enjoy a lot of other beats.

Tim F, Thursday, 12 April 2012 09:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk what an r&bist approach to rhythm would even be!

the other thing that was kind of life-changing in how i heard hip-hop rhythms was the first time i was driven around in atlanta. it was like, ohhhhh so this is what this music is made for. hard to explain but the rhythm of travelling in a car and the rhythm of the music was a completely natural fit. (cf london where no one ever has cause to get in a car that isn't a taxi, i think i've been in maybe one car a year since i've lived here)

liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Thursday, 12 April 2012 09:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

enjoyable to read though that lunatic theory was, i would suggest that "no one ever" type generalisations may just perhaps be somewhat beyond you

r|t|c, Thursday, 12 April 2012 11:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oooft there's some proper beauties on that lovers/r & b jungle thread.

Mr Andy M, Thursday, 12 April 2012 11:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

possibly a tiny bit too on the nose for tim's 'beats as storyteller' binary (ie. erm, ultradeluxe triphop and not dance music per se maybe) but everything coming after the intro setpiece here is just fantastically, captivatingly atmospheric and evocative, always keeping you in this prowling lull but constantly offguard in a unsettling state of paranoiac restlessness, nightmares in paradise

r|t|c, Thursday, 12 April 2012 11:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

I get the trepidation re 'fit' but nonetheless that's awesome!

Tim F, Thursday, 12 April 2012 12:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk what an r&bist approach to rhythm would even be!

In retrospect I was half-remembering what you'd said at the top of the thread:

garage i've always thought of as pop music, and when it comes to pop/r&b my platonic ideal is basically the janet/ciara style of rhythms that may be ridiculously fast or complex but are fundamentally steady enough to use in the regimented atmosphere of a street dance class. 2-step beats fit into that framework, loosely.

I know that doesn't really explain your love of house and techno except perhaps analogously - i.e. something (rhythms, synth tones etc.) takes the place of the "song" and more generally the place of rhythm is as something that can be distinct and impressive but always in the service of a broader structure which it underpins.

Tim F, Thursday, 12 April 2012 12:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

The Razors edge, posted up-thread, has to be one of the most undervalued example of rhythmic science in jungle. Skeleton on a whole were a killer label, its just a shame they didnt have a Pete Parsons on board as the production is invariably dodgy.

Some of the later adventures of Steve Gurley are great examples of stuff that straddles the line between experimentation and danceability:

D'Cruze is often accused of crossing that line, especially with 'control', but I reckon he mostly stays on the right side:

Always loved this one, weird off kilter beat, with the amen pushed tight down in the mix. Really come into its own in the mix:

droid, Friday, 20 April 2012 09:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hi droid, never realized you posted here. Mercy Mercy is big big big, yes.
I'm not the biggest fan of his stuff generally but Cool Hand Flex did some to go through a real purple patch round about 94-95:

& of course

Mercy Mercy definitely the stand-out for me though.

Mr Andy M, Saturday, 21 April 2012 22:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

One for rtc and the juxtaposition/r&b/dancehall heads (maybe):

Mr Andy M, Saturday, 21 April 2012 22:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

Great track!

Tim F, Sunday, 22 April 2012 00:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm.

THIS IS INSANE TO ME.

hologram ned raggett (The Reverend), Sunday, 22 April 2012 08:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one who listens to funky for rhythm (inter alia) - was starting to feel like a pariah weirdo.

Tim F, Sunday, 22 April 2012 10:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, for me a huge part of funky's appeal was the fact that it seemed to be on a constant quest to find interesting new variations of rhythms i already liked

hologram ned raggett (The Reverend), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 03:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm and it's on exactly this point, the way in which funky seemed to slide between the rhythmically familiar and the unfamiliar, managing to be rhythmically comforting and confounding at the same time. This isn't a new trick in dance music but I tend to think funky's golden age took it an extreme (to the extent one can describe such a state of inbetweenness as "extreme").

Tim F, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 05:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

rhythmically comforting and confounding at the same time.

spot on. one of those central tensions.

hologram ned raggett (The Reverend), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 05:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

i don't think i ever heard funky as rhythmically confounding - insofar as i noticed the rhythms they provided a very comforting sweet spot

liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 09:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

Lex it's fair to say that little if any of the funky you seemed to like most could be described as rhythmically confounding, in particular stuff like "In The Air" and "Falling Again" are basically straight vocal house.

Tim F, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 09:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm

!!

etc, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 09:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

it'll be in french though.

Rev, did you ever hear Dubplate Wonder's Wonderland 09 set? It's all his own productions and it is basically all about that tension, 100%.

Tim F, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 11:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

Pretty much cosign what Rev & Tim are saying about funky.

Having another boring day where I'm trying to get myself writing, so thought I'd throw in some more thoughts on the whole is jungle danceable/how do you dance to jungle thing -
I guess there were aspects of it that I initially had problems with as a dance, but for me it wasn’t so much the full-on Amen rinse-out tunes that I had problems with – yeah it could be difficult, at times nearly impossible to follow every single beat on them but I could at least generally spasm about to them in the same way that I used to do with like Bad Brains or F-Minus or whatever. I guess in that respect it’s helpful that the Amen break has an inherent degree of energy and forward-motion in it that will come through no matter what way it’s chopped and reordered.

The kind of tunes I had more trouble with were the very strongly reggae-influenced tunes that mostly came out in 94 at the peak of jungle’s popularity. Trying to think of good examples here – Dem A Gwarn Like Dem Know Badness by Tek 9 would be one, or even Idiot Sound by New Blood. Both great tunes of course, and there were loads of others in that style that I loved and straight away wanted to dance to, i.e. I found the rhythmically compelling but wasn’t quite sure how to move my body to them.

I think part of this came from how the producers folded the breakbeats down into that skanking reggae groove – it would create an effect where the beat would seem to drop out at unexpected places, or else where the overall beat pattern of the tune would feel lop-sided or lurching until you got used to it. I think I’ve pretty much got there with dancing to these tunes – of course, like with almost all dance music I’m never sure that I’m dancing the right way to it. I’ve danced to jungle in clubs but not really for full sets and obv not with og jungle ravers so it’s hard to measure my moves against anything. But I can move to it without really thinking about it now which I think is a big part of it, like I’m not often standing around and hesitating.

Mr Andy M, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 12:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

As a dancer the first kind of jungle tunes that did hook me were along the lines of the M-Beat one I posted upthread, i.e. ones with a beat pattern that was immediately captivating but also concise and not too difficult to follow. Also more steady-rollin’ kind of tunes like The Burial, Helicopter Tune, Sovereign Melody etc. Those were the ones I found myself intuitively making moves to while listening.

Mr Andy M, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 13:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

Lol 'as a dancer' sounds so pompous, 'from a dancing pov' is maybe a better way to put it.

Mr Andy M, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 13:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'm with the lex on this thread. man, its hard for me to think of too many genres or sub-genres i never want to hear. but this would be one of them. and i try too. i just played portions of every youtube on this thread.

scott seward, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 13:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hey Andy - I used to post a bit on ILC, but I mainly lurk waiting for that rare beast - a good thread about jungle.

RE: Flex. He's a bit patchy fer sure , but I'll forgive him anything because of this:

And this sublime pulsating bass hot pants 4/4 kick combo:

droid, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 16:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm

#rare #based

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 25 April 2012 16:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hey Andy - I used to post a bit on ILC, but I mainly lurk waiting for that rare beast - a good thread about jungle.
Haha I feel you on this - don't post here all that much but when I first saw this thread my eyes totally lit up. Trying to get a bit more involved with things here at the moment though.
Had forgotten about Ya Buzzin Again actually, it's a good 'un yeah.
Have listened to that Steve Gurley FX In Dub Mix tune you posted 10+ times in the last few days btw, so good.

Mr Andy M, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 17:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...

So dark that this wasn't the version of "Watching Windows" used on the album:

Tim F, Sunday, 26 October 2014 11:25 (1 month ago) Permalink

wow

the late great, Sunday, 26 October 2014 21:31 (1 month ago) Permalink

DJ Die remix was also great, but this version goes so fantastically with the actual song, makes it maybe the equal of "Share The Fall".

One of my favourite things about the best Roni/Reprazent beats circa New Forms is how that whole investment in sounding like a live drummer translates into this rhythms where it constantly sounds like the beat is just about to fall behind itself, is always working frantically to keep up. Rather than "fluidity", the effect is a very human wired twitchiness.

Tim F, Sunday, 26 October 2014 21:58 (1 month ago) Permalink

i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm.

my mind is still boggling at this assertion two years later

I Love Makonnen: New Answers (The Reverend), Tuesday, 28 October 2014 07:16 (1 month ago) Permalink

Haha

Tim F, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 08:27 (1 month ago) Permalink

loool

deej loaf (D-40), Tuesday, 28 October 2014 09:00 (1 month ago) Permalink

this was a good thread

the late great, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 22:59 (1 month ago) Permalink

Vaguely related to peak-era Reprazent, I'm interested in that half-missed opportunity circa 1995-1997 for grooves that were on a Davis/Hancock meets Jon Hassell fourth world tip. Hidden Agenda are the obvious example here but I think they actually verge on being too fiddly when in this mode (my favourite HA track remains "Dispatch #2", which is more of a neurofunk affair).

This was inspired by listening to Form & Function again and rediscovering Peshay's remix of "Rings Around Saturn", the way he redeploys those razor-sharp isolated snares within that constantly pirouetting jazz-funk groove. "On The Nile" probably is a good example of this as well though I'd have to listen again to say just how good.

Funny how drum & bass passed by so many interesting potential avenues of exploration so quickly in its accelerating plunge towards rhythmic conformity. I've really only heard the singles from Miles From Home but they suggested that by 1999 Peshay had totally smoothed out his beats. Even "P vs P"!

Tim F, Tuesday, 28 October 2014 23:25 (1 month ago) Permalink

Don't know if this can exactly be called jungle, but what it can be exactly called is incredible.

the joke should be over once the kid is eaten. (chap), Saturday, 8 November 2014 07:03 (1 month ago) Permalink

Well duh

Tim F, Saturday, 8 November 2014 08:00 (1 month ago) Permalink

In retrospect Trace and Nico's "Damn Son" sounds rather like a hot uk funky rhythm played too fast:

Tim F, Saturday, 8 November 2014 08:01 (1 month ago) Permalink


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