Dub / Reggae: An Idiot's Guide

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My favourite Scientist LP is "Dub Landing", really very fine. Impossible to find, of course (in fact, even my copied copy is impossible to find since it's on a long term lend to a sometime contributor here). Why doesn't someone reissue that, eh?

― Tim, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Omar is sooo wrong over Heart of the Congos... mind you, unless you like shrill falsetto vocals it might not be a wise choice.

― m jemmeson, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Are there any labels to avoid - I'd heard the reggae CD market was flooded with shoddy product.

― Dr. C, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

hmmm - JA vinyl is notoriously poor quality, e.g. reground stuff, with badly photocopied sleeves. if you're buying 7"s try and listen to them first, because the mastering can be dreadful besides all the pops etc

there's also loads of dodgy Lee Perry and King Tubby stuff - i.e. CDs put out claiming to be produced by them, or, when they're not lying, they're doing it illegally, and not paying the copyright owner. if you stick to Blood and Fire, Pressure Sounds, On-U, Trojan etc at first you should avoid the real stinkers, although all these labels have been guilty of barrel-scraping with certain releases.

― m jemmeson, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

In answer to your original question, can we put reggae and dub together, sure we can, they are utterly, inextricably linked and it's often hard to draw a line between them. If you want to learn more about the origins of reggae and dub, read Bass Culture by Lloyd Bradley. If I were to pick one album to set you on your way I'd the Studio One Rockers compil on SOULJAZZ. It's got a bit of everything and doesn't contain a weak track.

― Daniel, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Addendum: Lee Perry is playing in New Haven this evening (with the Mad Professor). Should I go?

― David Raposa, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

hmmmm... Mad Professor is ok live, Lee Perry variable - he can be absolutely terrible. Reggae and dub aren't really 'live' musics, they're better on record or via DJ, IMO.

― m jemmeson, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

That is the push I needed to save myself $25. Much obliged.

― David Raposa, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

spend the money on reggae records - you won't regret it. live concerts are a nice way to see your heroes, but for a music which is all about skilful production and beautiful voices, live music venues don't really cut it. i think selective CD purchasing is more likely to turn someone on to reggae than a concert

― m jemmeson, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Then again, sometimes Mad Professor can be killer.

― cybele, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Nope. Mind made up. There's also the risk that my brand new company car could have an illicit rendevous with a cement brick. I like M's idea better - save the money, buy some discs, and acquaint myself with the music that way. I wouldn't mind going, but for TWENTY FIVE bucks?

― David Raposa, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

we've talked about this before, david i'm sure. NO show is worth $25 bucks. not even miles davis' corpse in a daishiki.

― jess, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Bullshit. I saw Lee Perry a few years ago with Mad Professor. He played for four hours, smoking giant spliffs that would have felled a lesser man in seconds the whole time. You have to see him just to see him prance around. (Great nude photo in Vanity Fair this month).

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Also, dub IS a live music. You can't get the true physical impact of the music without hearing it booming out of enormous bass bins. Just go and hear a really kickass sound system and be transported to another dimension. I don't know if Abu Shanti still plays in London, but he's great.

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Not to change the subject, but I think paying $32 to see Mission of Burma is pretty fair. Sort of. Maybe. Well, if they dedicate the set to me. And make "Einstein's Day" into "Raposa's Day". And change their name to Dave Is All Good. Yeah, then it'd be worth it.

But never mind me and my minor griping. Have I thanked you all for your recommendations yet? I haven't gone out and bought anything, mind you, but when I do, you'll be the 10th or 11th to know.

― David Raposa, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

weed smokers in tha hay-ouse!!!! :)

fuckin contrary: Towers of Dub is better than Yabby U

― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

To whoever said that dub needs to be experienced on a giant sound system: word.

You just can't get it loud enough at home. It's gotta be so heavy that you can feel the bass from your fingers through to your toes. I'd pay $25 for that--then again, I'm Canadian. Don't know whether I'd pay $25 US.

― cybele, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Live Dub soundsystems are the best way to hear dub, unless you've got a 200k rig in your front room, seeing Jah shaka live the physicality of the bass is sickening, especially mixed with some weed, perfect!

― jk, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I saw Lee Perry recently and it was dross. Having said that, dub can work live. Dennis Bovell and the Dub Band, for example, with DB making special effects with his voice. Staggering.

― Daniel, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

People with serious knowledge have joined since the last time we covered this territory. I'm sure I'll be returning to this thread before my next trip to the record store. Nice work.

― Mark, Thursday, 1 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

yeah, i was talking about live reggae concerts, i.e. with a band, singers etc, which *usually* wouldn't be a great introduction to reggae.

dub sound-systems play a variety of *records*, and are a safer bet as an introduction (as well as getting the impact of the bass. Jah Shaka is very good, another big UK name is Aba Shanti. most JA sound systems will play dancehall.

― m jemmeson, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Right there with you...Reggae is and will always be producer/sound engineer music.

Bring on the Scratch, Jammy, and Tubby...and forward the bass.

― cybele, Friday, 2 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Anybody know anything about the Recall label? They're doing some 2-CD sets - Augustus Pablo, King Tubby, Horace Andy etc. I bought the Augustus Pablo one, called "Jah Inspiration" and I'm pretty disappointed - some lifeless, poorly recorded trundles on one disc, and some King Tubby dubs (so it says) on disc 2. Have I bought a pup?

― Dr. C, Tuesday, 13 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

My other *real* thing at the moment is 70s Gregory Isaacs. More Gregory.

Soon Forward and Mr. Isaacs are incredible. Smooooth mofo.

A step back a little further to rocksteady can't do any harm

Love love love rocksteady. Anybody who likes American soul music should check into it. Some favorites: John Holt (and the Paragons), Slim Smith (and the Techniques/Uniques), Pat Kelly, Ken Boothe, The Heptones.

The Pressure Sounds comps are great too.

The Royals singles compilation on Pressure Sounds, 'Pick Up the Pieces', has been kicking my ass recently. Classic from beginning to end. Dubwise, the Joe Gibbs comp. 'No Bones for the Dogs' is quality throughout as well.

Other shit that I've been hooked on and can usu be found at a good price: Delroy Wilson 'Good All Over' (rocksteady at the cusp of reggae), Dub Over Dub (27 tracks of Errol Thompson's mixing, with solid tracks as a base), the Wailing Souls self-titled debut (superb, utterly beautiful singing and catchy yet rough tunes), Scientist vs Space Invaders (um, it's early 80s Scientist. nuff said), Gladiators 'Proverbial Reggae' (you know reggae is the shit when an album this good hardly gets discussed)

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 21 June 2003 07:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

the only dub reggae album you need is best dressed chicken in town by dr alimantado. it has the best sleeve ever as well

― ss, Saturday, 21 June 2003 16:59 (9 years ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

"A History of Dub: The Golden Age" is an amazing comp.

― Ian Johnson (orion), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 07:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

Also: are there any record stores in NYC where I can find CHEAP used dub LPs? (where cheap is like $5-$7.)

― Ian Johnson (orion), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 07:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

Just want to plug for the King Jammy's book--probably one of the best stuff, certainly one of the only things, about that era of dancehall written. Plus...Intro design!

Born Fi Dead by Laurie Gunst is also essential to get that time, tho less about music than politics.

Ian, check Jammyland in the East Village. Might be more $8-$12 but the selection is all essential. Everything above and more. In JA fashion, will play you 45s and LPs if you ask. If you can make it out to Moodies in the north Bronx, it's also amazing. More stuff straight from JA distributors. VP, of course, too in Queens.

― Jeff Chang, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:09 (9 years ago) Permalink

Other thing is Shanachie has just re-released Augustus Pablo's King Tubby Meets The Rockers Uptown in deluxe edition with extra dubs. It's incredible.

― Jeff Chang, Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:28 (9 years ago) Permalink

I have the old version on Shanachie and the tracks are mislabeled, causing me to not know which was the title track, ie it says it's track #8 but it's really #9 IIRC. AMG has it wrong, too.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:40 (9 years ago) Permalink

Now I love A. Pablo as much as the next man, probably even more. But am I the only one who feels a bit underwhelmed at the prospect of hearing more versions of those classic Rockers rhythms? I know that one's not supposed to say this but more cuts of those rhythms = diminishing returns, I fear.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 16:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

I could listen to him all day at the moment. The best album I've bought in the last year or so is this :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008LKHZ/ref=sr_aps_music_1_1/202-0254809-4916649

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 13 January 2004 17:22 (9 years ago) Permalink

4 years pass...

if you stick to Blood and Fire, Pressure Sounds, On-U, Trojan etc at first you should avoid the real stinkers, although all these labels have been guilty of barrel-scraping with certain releases.

On what discs is Blood & Fire ''barrel-scraping''? I mean, I've only got about 25 of their discs (RIP to B&F, BTW), but I haven't heard any ''barrel-scraping.''

― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 2 March 2008 17:56 (5 years ago) Permalink

Forget Heart of the Congo's, overrated.

-- Omar, Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:00 PM (6 years ago)

huh

― am0n, Sunday, 2 March 2008 18:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

i just ordered that jammys book mentioned upthread

― am0n, Sunday, 2 March 2008 19:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

5 dolla

― am0n, Sunday, 2 March 2008 22:13 (5 years ago) Permalink

'Nother good dub/reggae book is supposed to be Michael E. Veal's Dub: Soundscapes & Shattered Songs in Jamaican Reggae (2007).

Also 5 dolla, perhaps?

― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 2 March 2008 23:28 (5 years ago) Permalink

I just randomly found Lee Perry's Ape-ology, BTW. Will be spinning it this evening. Should I prepare myself to be disappointed or is this a "change your life"-type experience (or does it fall somewhere in between, perhaps)?

― Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 2 March 2008 23:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

judy mowatt.
gregory isaacs.

― dylannn, Sunday, 2 March 2008 23:36 (5 years ago) Permalink

I just randomly found Lee Perry's Ape-ology, BTW. Will be spinning it this evening. Should I prepare myself to be disappointed or is this a "change your life"-type experience (or does it fall somewhere in between, perhaps)?

-- Daniel, Esq.

I like Ape-ology but prefer the Arkology boxset which is full of great vocalists (Max Romeo et al.) and is therefore a bit more accessible. Ape-ology is a much heavier / claustrophobic proposition.

― sam500, Monday, 3 March 2008 05:57 (5 years ago) Permalink

Ape-ology is just Super Ape (super awesome) + Return of the Super Ape (not as awesome) + Roast Fish, Collie, & Cornbread (awesome, but Perry vocals get a little wearying after a while), right? Yeah Arkology is better.

― Alex in SF, Monday, 3 March 2008 19:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

i agree with the poster that said heart of the congo is overrated. there are a couple of very nice trax on it, but....
why come nobody has mentioned Black Uhuru on this thread? i can't think of a better reggae group from the eighties - Anthem and Red are both pretty stellar

― outdoor_miner, Monday, 3 March 2008 20:00 (5 years ago) Permalink

Anyway the answer to the original B&F question is that Congos and Burning Spear and Tubby stuff that were among their original releases were so strong that for a while everything else kind of paled in comparison and so a lot of reggae trainspotters got down on the label. Specifically I recall the Morwells, U-Brown, Impact All Stars getting a lot of flack (needlessly frankly.)

― Alex in SF, Monday, 3 March 2008 20:06 (5 years ago) Permalink

re: congos being overrated

this is truly an idiot's guide

― elan, Monday, 3 March 2008 20:11 (5 years ago) Permalink

Roast Fish, Collie Weed & Cornbread is classic Perry. Also a big fan of "Kung Fu Man" on The Mighty Upsetter.

― ian, Monday, 3 March 2008 20:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

Hell, I haven't heard any Perry I didn't like. Double Seven and Blackboard Jungle Dub also get a lot of play around here.

― ian, Monday, 3 March 2008 20:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yeah Arkology is better.

No option for yesterday, as Ape-ology is all this place had. However, some time earlier I did find The Upsetter Selection at the same place. Not bad for a Border's Bookstore music section.

― Daniel, Esq., Monday, 3 March 2008 20:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

been on a bit of a dub binge lately - Scientist, Prince Far-I, Culture (almost all at the recommendation of some other ILM dub thread - thx ILM!)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 3 March 2008 20:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm really enjoying Ape-ology. I vaguely remember somebody upthread saying it's heavy, dark-ish dub/reggae, but I think the psychadelic touches (n.1) give it a lighter-touch than a lot of other (great in its own way) dub/reggae I've heard, e.g., Blood & Fire's stuff.

___________________________
(n.1) I also want to say the guitars give it a lighter sound, at least I think it's guitars I'm hearing on at least the early cuts on Super-Ape.

― Daniel, Esq., Monday, 3 March 2008 20:55 (5 years ago) Permalink

A lot of people would argue that Super Ape is exactly the opposite of light. Rather than being dub reduced to drum/bass/echo, it's MAXIMALIST dub with every track featuring more more more production touches, effects, instruments and even vocals. Either way it's great.

― Alex in SF, Monday, 3 March 2008 21:20 (5 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 292 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

nuh skin up
from one extreme to another

― ♨ (am0n), Thursday, 3 January 2013 03:39 (4 months ago) Permalink

Sorry, i'm replying on my phone so was too brief in my last comment. There are only 2 Basic Replay reissues but I included the Torch of Freedom in my '3 reissues' comment since they're similar in quality and vibe. In addition to what you have, I highly recommend The Hudson Affair 2CD set and you absolutely should get Playing it Cool immediately. I believe most of Nuh Skin Up is on the reissue of Rasta Communication but you should get that if you're missing any of the tracks on there. From One Extreme to Another is a bit spotty in my opinion.

― brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 3 January 2013 04:02 (4 months ago) Permalink

What is the greatest hits vol1 disc you have?

― brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 3 January 2013 04:06 (4 months ago) Permalink

Cool, thanks for the advice. I actually have The Hudson Affair and Nuh Skin Up - just forgot to list them. I don't recall ever having heard about One Extreme To Another, but it looks like it's vinyl only (?)

The Greatest Hits, Volume 1 CD is on a label called Sky High & Mau Mau - I think it was a one-off label, and was put out by his family. Here's the tracklist:

Rasta Country 2:56 (different mix than the one on Rasta Communication)
Rasta Side 2:52
Bloody Eyes 3:02 (different mix / version from the one on Rasta Communication)
Rasta Communication 2:22 (different version from the one on Rasta Communication)
Instant Skank 2:02
Melody Maker (dub) 2:10
Goliat 3:09 (with vocals from U Roy)
Riot (dub) 3:00 (seems the same as Soul Syndicate's "Riot," but vaguely different mix)
Bouts Up 1:40
True To My Heart 2:09
Though You Knew 2:11
Write Me 2:35
Write (dub) 2:10
Flesh Of My Skin 2:23 (about a minute shorter than the album version, different mix?)
Skin (dub) 2:01 (dub version of the song above)
In The West Indies 2:24
Fight A Revolution 2:02 (same as Fight For Revolution?)
Torch Of Freedom 2:23 (very spooky instrumental / dub version, different than the LP version)
We Can Work It Out 2:45 (1:48 shorter than the Too Expensive version, but same mix)
Too Expensive 2:40 (2:17 shorter than the Too Expensive version, but same mix)
Darkest Night 2:50 (same as the version on Flesh Of My Skin)

Some versions are *completely* different, some songs aren't on any of the albums I have, but I don't have "Flesh Of My Skin" handy . . . although the only song that could be the same is the last, I just can't compare it right now. Possibly these are single versions or something. It's a pretty cool collection, though, and worth it for the radically different takes on familiar songs. Holds together well, but long out of print.

I'll trade a CD-R copy (AIFF files direct from CD), especially if anyone could do the same for CD-sourced copies of these way out-of-print titles:

JUNIOR BYLES jordan
CLANCY ECCLES & THE DYNAMITES nyah reggae rock
 THE EQUALS black skin blue eyed boys (double CD version)
FLYING LIZARDS top ten  
CHARLES HAYWARD live in japan: near & far
SCIENTIST V PRINCE JAMMY big showdown at king tubby's

. . . but if you don't have those and are desperate, I'll hook you up anyway! Just e-mail.

― crustaceanrebel, Thursday, 3 January 2013 06:32 (4 months ago) Permalink

O/T because DJ not dub but on the subject of Keith Hudson productions it's really worth keeping your eyes peeled for the Militant Barry LP, "Green Valley".

This cut, "Pistol Boy", which concerns Sid Vicious, was legendary to me for years because Ranking Roger out of The Beat namechecked it in Smash Hits in 1980 or something. Took me a long time ot track it down. I'm often surprised it's not cited more often by punk rock historians looking for material evidence of reggae-punk connections and getting a bit stuck after "Punky Reggae Party".

― Tim, Thursday, 3 January 2013 09:47 (4 months ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

got some pretty silkscreened dub that will probably end up in france. for now i can gaze lovingly at them. and play them.

― scott seward, Friday, 25 January 2013 14:36 (3 months ago) Permalink

!!! Bloody hell. Have only ever seen one of these, and even that one not in that cover. Guess these are really very rare, huh? What label design, Scott?

― Tim, Friday, 25 January 2013 14:48 (3 months ago) Permalink

so pretty.

― EZ Snappin, Friday, 25 January 2013 14:49 (3 months ago) Permalink

sick, i bet those go for lots of $$$

― am0n, Friday, 25 January 2013 17:21 (3 months ago) Permalink

forgot how good this guy is