I dont know about Robin, but I picked up the word from early 80s NME discourse, or rather from reading *about* early 80s NME discourse - it was used a lot by people writing about post-punk and the New Pop.
― Tom, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Josh, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Other despicably rockist acts included using the words "album", "track" and "group" - better were "LP", "cut", and, oh, this last one I forget.
― mark sinker, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
someone was rockist if they only listened to hard rock music: AC/DC, Black Crowes, Judas Priest/ Gun/ Tesla/ Guns N Roses/Little Angels/ King Swamp/The Almighty/ Def Leppard etc
and their favoutite music night - was "rock nite" - with long hair/leather jacket/ Guns N Roses patches/ jack daniels/ headbanging/ skinny black jeans - ie all the rock cliches - I am not going there it is to rockist
I used to refer in a derogatory manner to someone in University in the late 80s for being to rockist, i.e they use to read only Raw magazine and their music tastes were too rockist.
While I listened to a wider variety of music Talk Talk/Spacemen 3/ Cocteau Twins/ Yello/Colourbox/ The Fall/ Happy Mondays/ My Bloody Valentine/ arkane/ Front 242/ Husker Du/ Mary Margaret O'Hara/ Kate Bush/Detroit techno/ Wire/ Lowlife/That Petrol Emotion/ Throwing Muses/ Sonic Youth/Phillip Boa & the Voodoo Club/ The Young Gods/ The Chameleons/ Blue Nile/ Voivod/ Sisters of Mercy/ Skinny Puppy/New Order/Killing Joke etc
― DJ Martian, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Lutra Lutra, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
If I were to take the term literally and think "music that males with children listen to", I would think dad-rock would be Celine Dion, Bryan Adams, Pink Floyd, Sting and Chris DeBurgh (at least around here). But I don't get the feeling that that's what you're referring to.
― Patrick, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
is Reef, Paul Weller, Cast, Oasis, Shed 7, Kula Shaker, Ocean Colour Scene - all retrogressive music - that took their influences from the sixities and early 70s - hence the old reference - of dad - i.e dadrock.
Dadrock - focuses on dull conformity of their retro influences, it refuses experimentation and new ideas.
Dadrock, was what brit pop morphed into from 1996 onwards.
Ocean Colour Scene - have often been labelled dadrock. For their ghastly plodding music. A truly disgusting horrible vile dadrock outfit, and the english equivalent of the bland Hootie & the Blowfish, Matchbox 20. Music so horrible- just hearing their music can induce vomitry.
Dadrock values are little englander, warm beer, laddish behaviour, loaded magazine, music conformity, waving the union jack while abroad looking for fights, conservatism, thinking Chris Evans is with it etc
in 2000 dadrock is on the slide - with only Toploader emerging, and they were utter shite.
Artists as diverse as Killing Joke, Six by Seven, Mogwai, Rico and Asian Dub Foundation - have been very critical of dadrock and the narrow cultural & musical agenda they promote.
DJ Martian - djmartian.blogspot.com the dadrock/britpop hater since 1994
― DJ Martian, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Also, when the rockism debate started in the early 80s, who was getting praised by the anti-rockist side ? I'm hoping Grandmaster Flash and Afrika Bambaataa, but guessing Spandau Ballet and the Human League (who were all right one song at a time on the radio, I guess).
And yes, as I understand it everyone you mentioned would have been anti-rockist. It was a term that let in chancers like Spandau Ballet, probably, though for three albums the Human League were at worst interesting and at best brilliant.
― Tom, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― sundar subramanian, Saturday, 16 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Josh, Saturday, 16 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Patrick, Sunday, 17 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Aquemini, Sunday, 17 December 2000 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― mark sinker, Tuesday, 20 February 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
You can sneer at it, but it always seemed to me that the term rockist was pretty useful to describe a kind of person (mostly a kind of journalist) who saw their fundamental roots in rock music - white, male, serious, guitar-based - and other musics as an entertaining diversion. I remember thinking Jamming! - for example - was depressingly rockist because I wanted to see them write about reggae and funk alongside the Jasmine Minks. But Jamming! was much happier writing about Billy Bragg and the Alarm. And the Redskins, for that s- o-u-l flavour. Oh yes. I mean, I enjoyed Jamming! but considered it distinctly rockist.
Now I understand that I should expect niche-marketed narrowmindedness. I have learned that it is unreasonable to expect publications to contain a genuine babble of competing voices and tastes.
'Rockist!' was an insult used, it seems to me, to imply that the recipient had seen punk and post-punk as a shot in the arm for rock music, rather than pick up on the various threads of much more interesting music which seemed available at the time. To fall back into a Great Rock Heritage in the shape of, say, the Bunnymen, or U2, or even Magazine (who I love) still seems lazy and tasteless to me. Even though I no longer see either of those terms as valid. Hm.
There's still a great article on the hip hop wars to be written, by the way.
― Tim, Tuesday, 20 February 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Patrick, Tuesday, 20 February 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― the pinefox, Wednesday, 14 March 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Tim, Thursday, 15 March 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― the pinefox, Thursday, 15 March 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Is rockism the liking of rock or the preference for it? Should we distinguish between anti-rockism and pop separatism? ;)
― Tom, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
A lot of the anti-rockism mentality seems to imply that the only way someone can possibly dislike, say, Destiny's Child, is by filtering their music through an outdated set of rock-dude values - I say it's entirely possible to listen to both DC and Television with the same open ears, come away prefering Television by miles, without being a ideologically-rigid pop-hating wet-blanket.
― Patrick, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I'd kinda like to quote the original Pete Wylie interview in which the term arose, but you know what — I lent my copy of NME that week to Matt Black of Coldcut (then Matt Cohn of the Jazz Insects), because it contained a review of the first A Certain Ratio LP — and he THREW IT AWAY instead of returning it!! When I complained — noting that Ian Penman had written said review — Matt replied: "Mark, you ARE Ian Penman."
So can I be Everett True yet?
― mark s, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
The origins of the term don’t matter too much. For me rockist means an approach – current irredeemable rockers include U2, Primal Scream, Manic Street Preachers, Pearl Jam. If you can air guitar to it, it’s rock. Whether you care for redemption is a separate issue.
― Guy, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Best definition of rock. Ever. :)
― Omar, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Who says ILM debates never get anywhere?
― Nick, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Stevie Nixed, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Surely this would mean that Smiths and Belle & Sebastian fans = rockists, and Rolling Stones fans = non-rockists ?
― Patrick, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tim, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Stones = MOST INAUTHENTIC ROCK GROUP OF ALL TIME BAR NONE, and that's what's GRATE abt em of course. Rockists SAY they like em, but when you go deeper, it's all talk.
(Patrick, is that you moved and back and settled in? Or are you another anti-anti- rockist Patrick joined forces with the first?)
― mark s, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― dave q, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Patrick, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Jan Geerinck, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Aaron W (Aaron W), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:25 (twenty years ago) link
Did I get that right?
― Frühlingsmute (Wintermute), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:28 (twenty years ago) link
Albums over songs. "Feeling" over, uh, other stuff. Individual performance and "real" performance over the "fake" (think synths and drum machines). A focus on lyrics. Narrative. "Development".
says Josh.
AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!
As a side point, I don't think that the world is rockist at all. It only turns into a rockist review when a reviewer who's only used to reviewing rock tries to review somethign else - not equipped with the tools maybe? If you're used to talking about how an album flows from song to song (which is often, for me, an element in the enjoyment of music) how do you cope if there's only 1 track? Or 12 indistinguisble tracks? How do you give a drum machine a mark out of ten for the drumming?
P.S. I'd like to append all of this by saying that I really don't knwo what I'm talking about. Thank you.
― Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:11 (twenty years ago) link
― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:13 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:14 (twenty years ago) link
Privileging of received wisdom over new discoursePrivileging of credibility / authenticityPrivileging of numbers and categorisation / lists
Mythology making the arbitrary appear necessary / essential
Making the cultural appear natural by making it appear to be invisible
The pursuit of objectivity
― Jimmybommy JimmyK'KANG (Nick Southall), Thursday, 16 September 2004 08:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― LSD ARISTOCAT (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 January 2005 19:39 (nineteen years ago) link
in america some seem to appreciate the post-punk 79-81 'real uk independant scene that we in uK have 'misplaced'and are refinding - see the Messthetics albums - brill bootleg compilations...
sorry am rambling and losing the thread..
jimmy
― james rogers, Wednesday, 10 August 2005 21:12 (eighteen years ago) link
Are there food critics out there writing about Burger King and sour patch kids etc these days?
― Evan, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:29 (five years ago) link
“Few” = 50 years?
Yeah ok lol
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:33 (five years ago) link
I dont think any of those genres are particularly “dynamic” at this point but thats just me
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:34 (five years ago) link
They are def rooted in black community tho, sure
You don't think 19-year-old idiots mumbling about depression on Soundcloud are the future of music? Racist.
― grawlix (unperson), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:36 (five years ago) link
The Definitely Not Racist has logged on
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:41 (five years ago) link
Anyway here’s a timely investigation
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/20/arts/music/new-pop-music.html
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:42 (five years ago) link
Few” = 50 years?
― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 20, 2018 1:33 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
We’re comparing it to the scale of Europe inventing the widely adopted notion of tonality so yes this is still relatively recent
― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:43 (five years ago) link
Also techno was not invented 50 years ago, lol
yeah talking out of the side of my neck a bit on that one (what's the first "techno" record? Kraftwerk? idk lol) whereas house and hip hop both have conventionally agreed-upon start dates which are closer to the 40 year mark, my bad
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:46 (five years ago) link
Anyway here’s a timely investigation https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/20/arts/music/new-pop-music.html🕸
― breastcrawl, Saturday, 22 December 2018 22:47 (five years ago) link
https://variety.com/2020/music/reviews/selena-gomez-rare-album-review-1203463571/
“Rare” is one of the best pop albums to be released in recent memory, and — as it does for artists ranging from Robyn and Charli XCX to Max Martin’s more adventurous productions — it feels like that term does a discredit to this sophisticated, precisely written and expertly produced music.
― Don’t yell ‘Judas!’ in a crowded theater (morrisp), Saturday, 11 January 2020 04:52 (four years ago) link
lol
― dyl, Saturday, 11 January 2020 06:20 (four years ago) link
Perhaps they should call it something like Sophistipop
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Saturday, 11 January 2020 14:51 (four years ago) link
In the new movie Trolls World Tour, it is revealed that Trolls representing all different genres (and sub-genres) of music used to live in harmony, but are now separated. Queen Barb of the Hard Rock Trolls (Ozzy plays their senile king) sets out to conquer all the other lands, making Hard Rock the only music. Our heroes, the Pop Trolls, have to save the day and unite all the genres again. Barb hates Pop, says it’s “not real music, too repetitive, the lyrics stink,” etc. I won’t tell you how it ends!
― morrisp, Saturday, 11 April 2020 18:50 (three years ago) link
Stereogum had a whole piece about this on Friday.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Saturday, 11 April 2020 18:54 (three years ago) link
I won’t tell you how it ends!
― force ghost bg (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 11 April 2020 19:38 (three years ago) link
xp Terribly written piece, desperately straining for a “critique” and misrepresenting basic plot points to do it.
― morrisp, Saturday, 11 April 2020 19:47 (three years ago) link
Until utopia is achieved and everyone makes an effort to enjoy that obscure and much-maligned art we call pop music while its devotees do absolutely nothing to meaningfully engage with other subgenres even as they clamour for more inclusivity, the need for endearingly didactic allegories will continue unabated.
― coviderunt omnes (pomenitul), Saturday, 11 April 2020 20:02 (three years ago) link
Part of the story is that Pop snuffed out musical diversity in the past, but you’d have to watch the movie to know that.
― morrisp, Saturday, 11 April 2020 20:06 (three years ago) link
Care to tell us more? (Not trolling, for real.)
― coviderunt omnes (pomenitul), Saturday, 11 April 2020 20:08 (three years ago) link
Never mind, I just read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia.
― coviderunt omnes (pomenitul), Saturday, 11 April 2020 20:13 (three years ago) link
― morrisp
truly, Trolls World Tour demands more thoughtful and incisive social commentary than this piece delivers
― Kate (rushomancy), Saturday, 11 April 2020 21:51 (three years ago) link
It doesn’t, but if someone’s going for that they should do it better.
― morrisp, Saturday, 11 April 2020 21:52 (three years ago) link
Caramanica did a piece on this for NYT, of course
Now that there's an entire Trolls movie about rockism and poptimism maybe we can finally be done ever using those words or concepts again
― ℺ ☽ ⋠ ⏎ (✖), Thursday, 16 April 2020 18:55 (three years ago) link
+1 to that
― morrisp, Thursday, 16 April 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link
people are writing about poptimism and rockism, in this economy??????
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Thursday, 16 April 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link
Aimee Mann:
By 1990, everything on the radio was starting to be Whitney Houston, Taylor Dayne, Tina Turner—it was very pop. Then Michael Penn comes out with this Beatles-esque, melodic song, but still with a little bit of a big snare drum sound. I was like, “Finally, somebody broke through with an actual song.”
― yes m!ch!gan - the feeling's forever (morrisp), Wednesday, 25 November 2020 02:23 (three years ago) link
A poptimist would have married Taylor Dayne.
― actually-very-convincing (Sund4r), Wednesday, 25 November 2020 02:34 (three years ago) link
The 1975’s Brits nomination proves great pop isn’t always drowned out by mindless gym music
― Alba, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 12:48 (one year ago) link
lol amazing
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 12:56 (one year ago) link
While making the album, The 1975 sought to capture the pure essence of their band – to simply “play it and record it,” as Healy told the New York Times last year. “Any kid can make a bedroom thing that sounds crazy,” he said. “What you can’t do is have been in a band for 20 years and be great players and go into a room and have that freedom.” The resulting album makes you feel as if you were in the room with the band as they recorded it.
Wow irl Aging rock act on new album: This time we wanted to go back to the basics guys in a room
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:03 (one year ago) link
If you're not listening to the 1975, you're probably at the gym
― Nabozo, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:11 (one year ago) link
Have they really been together for 20 years?
― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:16 (one year ago) link
Sounds like rockism is her weapon of choice for generation warfare. At the same time wishing for music that unites everyone by soundtracking our lives like Elton John.
― Nabozo, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:17 (one year ago) link
I'm a rockist man
Burning out his fuse up here alone
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:21 (one year ago) link
the opossite of thinking pop music with dubious quality (taylor swift, beyonce, the weekend, drake...) is relevant: the opposite of rockism... and both wrong
― CerebralCaustic, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 13:43 (one year ago) link
i miss the days when all new posters like this were considered to be a sock
― imago, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:00 (one year ago) link
sockism
― imago, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:01 (one year ago) link
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:14 (one year ago) link
it's more fun if you call them shit instead of not relevant - you'd be half wrong but have some courage in your own subjectivity
what's the rockism of appeals-to-relevance? it's a real thing and you can do it for or against rock or pop or whatever
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:49 (one year ago) link
It’s a far cry from previous decades, when artists like Elton John, Kate Bush and Phil Collins – who made music about grown-up concerns, which could be enjoyed by teens alike – soundtracked our lives. (It’s no surprise that this is the current state of pop in a country whose music industry is, according to the charts, propped up by a holy trinity of po-faced men: Ed Sheeran, George Ezra and Lewis Capaldi.)
I like Phil Collins but also it's very funny to use Phil Collins as an example here (and surely Phil is at least as po-faced as Sheeran, Ezra and Capaldi?)
― soref, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:23 (one year ago) link
I want someone to write a take on rockism that explains how Phil Collins and Steely Dan were the two uncoolest things imaginable to rockist gen x-ers but are both loved by rockist millenials. I have no idea what zoomers think of them, if anything
― soref, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:27 (one year ago) link
the early definitions on this thread are interesting in how diverse they are. what I'm getting is that rockism is a lot like fascism in how syncretic and incoherent it is and how many different guises can wear. someone could write a thing on ur-rockism like umberto eco did for fascism
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:38 (one year ago) link
"We wanted go back to the sound of just four guys in a gym."
― INDEPENDENTS DAY BY STEVEN SPILBERG (President Keyes), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 16:13 (one year ago) link
i prefer 'whinerism'
― CerebralCaustic, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:02 (one year ago) link
Why don't we ask Freddie deBoer
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:03 (one year ago) link
runner up: crypto-poptimists & crypto-rockists
― CerebralCaustic, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:06 (one year ago) link