Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

yeah I agree with DJP that it's pretty clear that Rory and Amy's story isn't over yet, but the way it was done there definitely left some unpleasant feelings.

Putting aside the doctor's God complex for the moment, I also suspect that a lot of the discomfort with this episode stems from that fact Amy as a character in general, and as a female character specifically, is kind of "problematic" - sorry to get all tigerbeatdown in here but she never really *does* anything.

it bothers me that she didn't do anything much at all last season beyond getting married, and it bothers me that she spent half of this season being unconscious and pregnant and the rest of the time having to be rescued.

but all of that wouldn't be so distasteful right now if she just showed one tenth of the strength and moxie you'd expect from a character like her in other situations - like, why hasn't she gone to look for Melody instead of relying on the doctor to find and take care of her own child? and why hasn't she, either on her own or with Rory or River, done anything to try and save the doctor (which is something that say Rose or Martha would have done)? maybe that's coming up in future episodes, but as it stands, the way Amy has been portrayed on the show really, really bugs me - she's just sooo passive.

It's a shame because she's likeable and fun and remy is right that part of the reason that Amy-Doctor dynamic is interesting is because she actually stands up to him once in a while. but as a character in her own right, it's a little sad that the writers can't seem to get her to be anything other than just funny and feisty and cuet.

*"from that fact Amy" = "from the fact that Amy"

Roz's that post makes me think Amy, as a character, is Polly Mk II

shameful confession: never seen old-Who. What was Polly like?

By the way, I want to point out that Rory actually mentioned that Amy had beaten him with a shoe, and he flinched when she approached. Not to dredge up last week's feminist objection, but IIRC, I was chastised a few dozen posts back for suggesting she was the physical aggressor in the relationship.

Bears repeating.

Yeah, when we were watching it last night we did say "ha ha, because domestic violence is hilarious!" This idea that it's somehow okay for her to hit him because hey, she's only a girl. It really bothers me. (This extends far beyond Doctor Who.)

but all of that wouldn't be so distasteful right now if she just showed one tenth of the strength and moxie you'd expect from a character like her in other situations - like, why hasn't she gone to look for Melody instead of relying on the doctor to find and take care of her own child? and why hasn't she, either on her own or with Rory or River, done anything to try and save the doctor (which is something that say Rose or Martha would have done)? maybe that's coming up in future episodes, but as it stands, the way Amy has been portrayed on the show really, really bugs me - she's just sooo passive.

This is very important, I think. For a number of reasons.

I. The Doctor has kind of groomed Amy her entire life: she is bound to hero-worship him. He's visited her as a child (multiple times), delayed her wedding, co-opted her marriage, befriended her husband, returned her parents from non-existence, become (pseudo?)-romantically involved with her child and helped her babby escape, he is a crazy-magic god man, and it makes sense that she is so beholden to him, and pretty much unquestioning. It makes sense for her character, and it is an ugly role for her to be in – but a psychologically real one.

II. Amy's got every reason to nurture a private galaxy of resentment toward the Doctor, and I'm not going to be surprised if it's her wearing the spacesuit at the end. The fact that the lost baby hasn't been a major issue might be a key to this; why wouldn't she be irate with him? If it's just sloppily forgotten, it'll be very, very disappointing and a missed opportunity on behalf of the writing team. Amy's entire life has been stolen/corrupted by the Doctor, and her flat affect may be a dark fin in the water.

III. On balance, this relationship is definitely _not good_ and every time Amy bucks up against the Doctor's will, there's a kind of cathartic 'whew, finally' that I think even the least astute viewer feels, and that makes her an interesting character. This is different than outright passivity: it's repression, and fear. Ultimately, though, it's key to (my) understanding the character that the Doctor is not cruel or controlling (w/r/t/ Amy) -- he's well-intentioned but utterly reckless in his arrogance, and I'm desperately hoping (and expecting) that this will pay-off in some larger plot pyrotechnics.

but all of that wouldn't be so distasteful right now if she just showed one tenth of the strength and moxie you'd expect from a character like her in other situations - like, why hasn't she gone to look for Melody instead of relying on the doctor to find and take care of her own child? and why hasn't she, either on her own or with Rory or River, done anything to try and save the doctor (which is something that say Rose or Martha would have done)? maybe that's coming up in future episodes, but as it stands, the way Amy has been portrayed on the show really, really bugs me - she's just sooo passive.

As much as I disdain psychologizing fictional characters (also, psychology is a soft science), from a dramatic standpoint, I have to agree with Roz here, which is why I in season 5 I lost a lot of patience with Amy for being someone to whom things happened. However, that's been largely the case for all of the nu-companions, yes? But on the third hand (and speaking for myself), I don't think I got to the point of exasperation for Rose/Martha/Donna quite nearly that I got to with Amy.

Still, as for the sudden disinterest in pursuing Melody, while it's IRL befuddling, in dramatic terms I'm completely relieved. People have already remarked about the increasingly serial season-long arcs and the continually high-pitched stakes that accompany the Storytelling In Epic Mode stuff, which gets incredibly tiring. It's a selfish thing for this viewer, but I actually prefer the fact that the Doctor et al aren't pursuing Melody in an Emo Epic Mode.

If I was at home I would post a picture of Elmo in Epic Mode, which is how I first read it.

Isn't the reason Amy didn't try tracking down Melody on her own stated baldly in River's revelation, namely that she wasn't raised by them and that she was eventually found by The Doctor, which we saw in "Let's Kill Hitler" (which Amy and Rory were around for)?

Also as an aside, it really makes sense to me that the dude who died every other episode would be the one most skeptical of the Doctor's motives.

I just watched the last episode from the previous series and was reminded that they still haven't solved the mystery of why the TARDIS blew up. How can they deal with that and all the unresolved stuff from this series in the episodes remaining? Has it been forgotten about?

I love that you think for even a second that the answer to that question isn't YES.

The title of Ep 13, which I have never posted for fear of Spoiler Police gives me the fear.

Isn't the TARDIS's destruction tied to The Silence, who are the coalition who stole Melody and turned her into an assassin?

Oh wait. No, shush sweetie, spoilers.

The title of Ep 13, which I have never posted for fear of Spoiler Police gives me the fear.

I got spoiled on this at w0rk a few weeks ago and had a sook about it

DJP:

this is almost exactly what the Doctor did to Sarah Jane at the end of The Hand of Fear, only this time the Doctor dumped his companions at a residence they could move into as opposed to on a street corner in entirely the wrong neighborhood of London (...) This Doctor definitely seems to be willing to stampede over the idea of free will

Most of the audience probably won't have picked up the Sarah Jane parallel but yeah, absolutely. It demonstrates that the Doctor has learnt from his mistakes (although in this episode his self-determined penance is a bit hard to swallow), while also reminding us that he really is a well-intentioned loner who just doesn't get other people.

Re the Doctor stamping out free will: it fits within the character of all the Doctors in that he regards himself as really the only person in the universe with any free will, and the few times that he reminds someone else of their own free will is really just him manipulating them for a greater end (e.g. imbuing Amy with that weird "you don't believe in me" minotaur-destroying nonsense).

If this show has any bearing on the motives of real human beings at all – especially mothers – this enforced domesticity would be the final straw with Amy, who should lose patience with all this bottled-up suppression and sort of burst forth as a hot-blooded maverick/warrior who wants her daughter (or at least some control over their relationship) and her space adventures, and will do anything to get them. That would be satisfying for the audience, and it would force the Doctor to regard humans with a new appreciation.

But Amy isn't even real, so fuck it I dunno. At least she doesn't get about pouting sexily anymore.

I got spoiled on this at w0rk a few weeks ago and had a sook about it

― robocop last year was a 'shop (sic), Monday, 19 September 2011 08:58 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Oh yeah, I saw it the other day. It's a spoiler in some ways and sort of blindingly obvious in others. Also, knowing how misleading/cryptic this show's end-of-series episode titles can be ('The Parting of the Ways', 'Journey's End', 'The Big Bang') I doubt there's much to worry about.

he really is a well-intentioned loner who just doesn't get other people.

And also, for all the time he's spent with them, he's NOT HUMAN

Yeah I think that's basically it. The doctor being a dick and seeing human relationships over-simplistically (humans who aren't with me live in houses and drive cars!) is the same thing he does with every other race or species (how often do we hear him say "on planet X everyone thinks Y and does Z"? Every week!). Too easy to ascribe that dickishness to the writer.

He's always done it but usually the characters and story are set up in such a way that it makes sense. In this episode it just doesn't imo, he just comes off looking a knob.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2011/sep/20/doctor-who-too-complicated

Really don't think it's too complicated. This is just CiF fodder.
Don't understand the objections of those who claim the writers are being arrogant in not catering to casual viewers. Why should they? What's wrong with asking a little of your audience?

Right, because those well-known flops, the Harry Potter movies, were so easy for the casual viewer to dip into. Double sarcasm, oh yeah.

"What's the deal with this Twin Peaks show, it doesn't make any sense!"

A: it's actually not that complicated
B: I wish more shows required brains being on to watch them

https://careers.bbc.co.uk/fe/tpl_bbc02.asp?newms=jj&id=40162&newlang=

Someone here should apply (unless you hate the show and just turn up on the thread to vent your spleen about how terrible it is).

should I apply in Welsh

cer ati!

I bet I could write a better advert than that, for starters.

Surely the reason the Doctor left them behind is because he knows something very very bad is about to happen to him and doesn't want Amy and Rory anywhere near it?

Anyway the actual meat of the story was curiously uninvolving and I'm kind of missing straight-up evil aliens that want to kill people rather than poor lost scared animals in space or whatever. I strangely enjoyed the introspective bit though because I like stories that revolve around the Doctor being a selfish arse.

Next week's is the start of a two-parter right? I sort of feel the rest of the series, while good, hasn't really matched up the opening story and I'm stoked to find out what happens.

Surely the reason the Doctor left them behind is because he knows something very very bad is about to happen to him and doesn't want Amy and Rory anywhere near it?

Yes, which is why I keep bringing up how he basically chucked Sarah Jane out on the door; it was for a similar reason. It does make a certain amount of narrative sense that the Doctor would at least try to leave his companions in a place where they could live this time around, particularly after re-encountering SJ in his previous incarnation and having her tear him a new one over her abandonment.

next week is the one before the finale, so it might cue that up - esp with all the links to the silence we saw in the last ep with Corden's character in it

afaik the last two are stand-alone episodes.

I would love to see them do a full-on "Dalek Masterplan" type extended story as long as they had enough action/plot to sustain it (we do not need "Miracle Day Pt 2")

We did not need Miracle Day Pt 1!

true, although my wife is now in love with Beloved Immortal Mekhi

Oh btw, my favourite miracle day theory was the the blessing's hole was caused by adric's cyber freighter going right through the earth, and that it wanted to make everyone in the world happy and have them love it back because it was the remains of adric's soul.

!

that... is fucking brilliant and hilarious

everybody get out your yellow tunics

Oh btw, my favourite miracle day theory was the the blessing's hole was caused by adric's cyber freighter going right through the earth, and that it wanted to make everyone in the world happy and have them love it back because it was the remains of adric's soul.

Okay, that theory almost makes the series worth it.

"... What is that?"
"It looks like... a gold-edged blue star..."

I am touching my badge for Mathematical Excellence in tribue.

i hope you're not within 500 yards of a school

You don't know how big my badge is.

This thread has taken a dark turn.

YOU LIKE IT THAT WAY.

(Personal xpost, gentle Friday-related bump)

Roger roger.