Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

i really missed how Amy is going to become a stereotype of domesticity.

emil.y otm and I also hope that that's not where Amy's character ends. Personally I think he's just keeping them both safe until it's time for him to die. xpost

"For such a creature, death would be a gift. So accept it and sleep well. (pause) I wasn't talking about myself."

I can't remember whether the doctor knows that Amy and Rory know exactly when he's going to die (did Amy tell RealDoctor or FleshDoctor? that was never actually made clear) - but at some point, he's going to have to go back to *their* past and set up his own death.

Have to believe that FutureAmy+Rory are also part of that plan somehow - it'd be odd if all we saw of them from now on were past versions of them.

Does that make sense? damn you timey-wimey.

i really missed how Amy is going to become a stereotype of domesticity.

― Gukbe, Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:30 AM (37 minutes ago

surely 'amy williams' was more about amy's affections being centered on rory over the doctor, and not about fealty and goodwifiness?

I think the doctor calling her 'amy williams' alone would've been fine, but that + leaving her at the door to explore the adventures of marriage + hot red car for Rory all at once, was where it went from dubious to all out ick.

(did Amy tell RealDoctor or FleshDoctor? that was never actually made clear)

yes it was, and he does

I get the "Williams" thing, but I'm not sure why NOT going on a series of life-threatening adventures = repressed wife. Don't lots of people live pretty decent, unrepressed lives when they're married and living in the suburbs? Unless we're making connections to the Toby Jones episode, in which Amy was the barefoot-and-pregnant wife of her nightmares?

And the car was just an awesome car?

Because it's not what Amy wants? Nothing wrong with the quiet life other than that Amy has never once expressed or indicated a desire for it.

But what should The Doctor have done?

Asked her what she wanted instead of giving her some sort of one-size-fits-all idea of domestic bliss + Rory's dream car?

But she's coming back!

It just seems to me that there's a lot more emotionally at work than there is culturally at work in this whole bungled situ. Rory is clearly along for the ride, out of loyalty to both the Doctor and Amy, but he wouldn't be doing this on his own, just for kicks. The Doctor is (I think) very aware that his motivation for including Amy is driven by (a) guilt (b) narcissism and is (c) wildly destructive to her life. He's not comfortable with her hero worship, and he's too immature (or something) to deal with it properly. Like with Rose, Donna, Martha, he's got to put her down before he kills her. He feels, rightly or wrongly, that her continued companionship will be terrible for her life. So he drops her off at home, giving her a pretty house (with a suspicious blue door) and her husband a big red car in the hopes of making a quiet, gracious exit. He's wrong – the exit provides him further control of her life - and the final 'Amy Williams' is ill-timed and a snide little pat on the head, but - at least as far as what we've seen actually indicated on screen - the goodbye is a lot more about the Doctor's discomfort w/ killing or destroying everything around him than it is with trying to force Amy into a certain lifestyle. And that's if there isn't something behind his motivation (blue door, plastic doctor copy, strange speech abt. death, his own looming awareness suggesting maybe otherwise).

By the way, I want to point out that Rory actually mentioned that Amy had beaten him with a shoe, and he flinched when she approached. Not to dredge up last week's feminist objection, but IIRC, I was chastised a few dozen posts back for suggesting she was the physical aggressor in the relationship.

I don't know. Maybe you're right. Odd conversation though.

"What do you want to do?"
"Stay with you."
"No. What else?"

xpost

The whole not-asking the 'want to continue' question was addressed explicitly earlier in the episode with the box of candy conversation. Of course she's going to want to continue -- who wouldn't?* *(Except Rory, who's got good reason to be done w/ all the gallivanting).

Would it have been better if he got them a studio conversion in Dalston and left them with an Oyster card?

Excluding companions from the specials

nu-Who companions who left of their own volition:

Mickey, Martha, River (tho obv she keeps coming back)

nu-Who companions who were left by the Doctor somewhere against their wishes:

Rose, Adam, Donna, Amy

I don't remember if Jack was abandoned or decided to leave. Rory, despite being psyched about the house, came back with three champagne glasses and seemed genuinely surprised that the Doctor had left them there so, while it's a safe bet that he would have been happy to leave the TARDIS for that new flat, it's unclear that he was ready to go without a proper goodbye.

Given that it is a virtual impossibility that this is the final goodbye for Amy and Rory, while I definitely see the logic behind the arguments against the show here for how it's handling the Doctor/Amy relationship, I don't think it's nearly as straightforward as "Amy needs to grow up and become a domestic drone." Setting aside the wholly reductionist idea that the only avenue open to Amy after traveling with the Doctor is staying at home catering to Rory's wishes, it's very clear to me that the series is not done with the relationship yet and that this is not meant to be anything other than plot mechanism to move Amy and Rory into position for the finale. This all strikes me as setup for the Doctor's 200 years of running alluded to at the beginning of the season; if Amy and Rory don't have anything to do with events after the Doctor gets shot and his body is burnt on a pyre, I will agree 100% with the terribleness of this goodbye. I don't think this is a goodbye, though; this is almost exactly what the Doctor did to Sarah Jane at the end of The Hand of Fear, only this time the Doctor dumped his companions at a residence they could move into as opposed to on a street corner in entirely the wrong neighborhood of London, carrying a box full of ludicrous nonsense. Also, Amy and Rory have left the Doctor for extended periods of time twice now; once for their honeymoon and once after discovering that River was their daughter. Narratively, this feels like another one of those interludes. From a real-life angle, if Karen and Arthur were leaving the series, we would have heard about it by now.

This Doctor definitely seems to be willing to stampede over the idea of free will; I feel that some amount of this dissatisfaction is intentional, as most of the storytelling from this season has revolved around how the Doctor treats most of his companions like really smart pets.

^ kickin' post. I think there's a certain amount of paternalism that we come to expect from the Moffat-Smith-Doctor: he's 900 years old, and he's never been painted as a particularly nice and angelic fella', as was RJD-Tennant-Doctor. You can't watch the two preceding seasons and expect him to behave in a way that does anything less than veer between condescending and fawning. (As DJP put it, treating his companions like very smart pets). It's easy to read malice or perpetuation of gender/sex preferences into his actions, and maybe they're inadvertently eeking out of the writers' fingertips, but I think a simpler explanation - and more likely one - is that he's more selfish and arrogant than many other Doctors, and his darkness is directed at everyone and more obvious in his treatment of Amy b/c occasionally she dares to contradict him.

yeah I agree with DJP that it's pretty clear that Rory and Amy's story isn't over yet, but the way it was done there definitely left some unpleasant feelings.

Putting aside the doctor's God complex for the moment, I also suspect that a lot of the discomfort with this episode stems from that fact Amy as a character in general, and as a female character specifically, is kind of "problematic" - sorry to get all tigerbeatdown in here but she never really *does* anything.

it bothers me that she didn't do anything much at all last season beyond getting married, and it bothers me that she spent half of this season being unconscious and pregnant and the rest of the time having to be rescued.

but all of that wouldn't be so distasteful right now if she just showed one tenth of the strength and moxie you'd expect from a character like her in other situations - like, why hasn't she gone to look for Melody instead of relying on the doctor to find and take care of her own child? and why hasn't she, either on her own or with Rory or River, done anything to try and save the doctor (which is something that say Rose or Martha would have done)? maybe that's coming up in future episodes, but as it stands, the way Amy has been portrayed on the show really, really bugs me - she's just sooo passive.

It's a shame because she's likeable and fun and remy is right that part of the reason that Amy-Doctor dynamic is interesting is because she actually stands up to him once in a while. but as a character in her own right, it's a little sad that the writers can't seem to get her to be anything other than just funny and feisty and cuet.

*"from that fact Amy" = "from the fact that Amy"

Roz's that post makes me think Amy, as a character, is Polly Mk II

shameful confession: never seen old-Who. What was Polly like?

By the way, I want to point out that Rory actually mentioned that Amy had beaten him with a shoe, and he flinched when she approached. Not to dredge up last week's feminist objection, but IIRC, I was chastised a few dozen posts back for suggesting she was the physical aggressor in the relationship.

Bears repeating.

Yeah, when we were watching it last night we did say "ha ha, because domestic violence is hilarious!" This idea that it's somehow okay for her to hit him because hey, she's only a girl. It really bothers me. (This extends far beyond Doctor Who.)

but all of that wouldn't be so distasteful right now if she just showed one tenth of the strength and moxie you'd expect from a character like her in other situations - like, why hasn't she gone to look for Melody instead of relying on the doctor to find and take care of her own child? and why hasn't she, either on her own or with Rory or River, done anything to try and save the doctor (which is something that say Rose or Martha would have done)? maybe that's coming up in future episodes, but as it stands, the way Amy has been portrayed on the show really, really bugs me - she's just sooo passive.

This is very important, I think. For a number of reasons.

I. The Doctor has kind of groomed Amy her entire life: she is bound to hero-worship him. He's visited her as a child (multiple times), delayed her wedding, co-opted her marriage, befriended her husband, returned her parents from non-existence, become (pseudo?)-romantically involved with her child and helped her babby escape, he is a crazy-magic god man, and it makes sense that she is so beholden to him, and pretty much unquestioning. It makes sense for her character, and it is an ugly role for her to be in – but a psychologically real one.

II. Amy's got every reason to nurture a private galaxy of resentment toward the Doctor, and I'm not going to be surprised if it's her wearing the spacesuit at the end. The fact that the lost baby hasn't been a major issue might be a key to this; why wouldn't she be irate with him? If it's just sloppily forgotten, it'll be very, very disappointing and a missed opportunity on behalf of the writing team. Amy's entire life has been stolen/corrupted by the Doctor, and her flat affect may be a dark fin in the water.

III. On balance, this relationship is definitely _not good_ and every time Amy bucks up against the Doctor's will, there's a kind of cathartic 'whew, finally' that I think even the least astute viewer feels, and that makes her an interesting character. This is different than outright passivity: it's repression, and fear. Ultimately, though, it's key to (my) understanding the character that the Doctor is not cruel or controlling (w/r/t/ Amy) -- he's well-intentioned but utterly reckless in his arrogance, and I'm desperately hoping (and expecting) that this will pay-off in some larger plot pyrotechnics.

but all of that wouldn't be so distasteful right now if she just showed one tenth of the strength and moxie you'd expect from a character like her in other situations - like, why hasn't she gone to look for Melody instead of relying on the doctor to find and take care of her own child? and why hasn't she, either on her own or with Rory or River, done anything to try and save the doctor (which is something that say Rose or Martha would have done)? maybe that's coming up in future episodes, but as it stands, the way Amy has been portrayed on the show really, really bugs me - she's just sooo passive.

As much as I disdain psychologizing fictional characters (also, psychology is a soft science), from a dramatic standpoint, I have to agree with Roz here, which is why I in season 5 I lost a lot of patience with Amy for being someone to whom things happened. However, that's been largely the case for all of the nu-companions, yes? But on the third hand (and speaking for myself), I don't think I got to the point of exasperation for Rose/Martha/Donna quite nearly that I got to with Amy.

Still, as for the sudden disinterest in pursuing Melody, while it's IRL befuddling, in dramatic terms I'm completely relieved. People have already remarked about the increasingly serial season-long arcs and the continually high-pitched stakes that accompany the Storytelling In Epic Mode stuff, which gets incredibly tiring. It's a selfish thing for this viewer, but I actually prefer the fact that the Doctor et al aren't pursuing Melody in an Emo Epic Mode.

If I was at home I would post a picture of Elmo in Epic Mode, which is how I first read it.

Isn't the reason Amy didn't try tracking down Melody on her own stated baldly in River's revelation, namely that she wasn't raised by them and that she was eventually found by The Doctor, which we saw in "Let's Kill Hitler" (which Amy and Rory were around for)?

Also as an aside, it really makes sense to me that the dude who died every other episode would be the one most skeptical of the Doctor's motives.

I just watched the last episode from the previous series and was reminded that they still haven't solved the mystery of why the TARDIS blew up. How can they deal with that and all the unresolved stuff from this series in the episodes remaining? Has it been forgotten about?

I love that you think for even a second that the answer to that question isn't YES.

The title of Ep 13, which I have never posted for fear of Spoiler Police gives me the fear.

Isn't the TARDIS's destruction tied to The Silence, who are the coalition who stole Melody and turned her into an assassin?

Oh wait. No, shush sweetie, spoilers.

The title of Ep 13, which I have never posted for fear of Spoiler Police gives me the fear.

I got spoiled on this at w0rk a few weeks ago and had a sook about it

DJP:

this is almost exactly what the Doctor did to Sarah Jane at the end of The Hand of Fear, only this time the Doctor dumped his companions at a residence they could move into as opposed to on a street corner in entirely the wrong neighborhood of London (...) This Doctor definitely seems to be willing to stampede over the idea of free will

Most of the audience probably won't have picked up the Sarah Jane parallel but yeah, absolutely. It demonstrates that the Doctor has learnt from his mistakes (although in this episode his self-determined penance is a bit hard to swallow), while also reminding us that he really is a well-intentioned loner who just doesn't get other people.

Re the Doctor stamping out free will: it fits within the character of all the Doctors in that he regards himself as really the only person in the universe with any free will, and the few times that he reminds someone else of their own free will is really just him manipulating them for a greater end (e.g. imbuing Amy with that weird "you don't believe in me" minotaur-destroying nonsense).

If this show has any bearing on the motives of real human beings at all – especially mothers – this enforced domesticity would be the final straw with Amy, who should lose patience with all this bottled-up suppression and sort of burst forth as a hot-blooded maverick/warrior who wants her daughter (or at least some control over their relationship) and her space adventures, and will do anything to get them. That would be satisfying for the audience, and it would force the Doctor to regard humans with a new appreciation.

But Amy isn't even real, so fuck it I dunno. At least she doesn't get about pouting sexily anymore.

I got spoiled on this at w0rk a few weeks ago and had a sook about it

― robocop last year was a 'shop (sic), Monday, 19 September 2011 08:58 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Oh yeah, I saw it the other day. It's a spoiler in some ways and sort of blindingly obvious in others. Also, knowing how misleading/cryptic this show's end-of-series episode titles can be ('The Parting of the Ways', 'Journey's End', 'The Big Bang') I doubt there's much to worry about.

he really is a well-intentioned loner who just doesn't get other people.

And also, for all the time he's spent with them, he's NOT HUMAN

Yeah I think that's basically it. The doctor being a dick and seeing human relationships over-simplistically (humans who aren't with me live in houses and drive cars!) is the same thing he does with every other race or species (how often do we hear him say "on planet X everyone thinks Y and does Z"? Every week!). Too easy to ascribe that dickishness to the writer.

He's always done it but usually the characters and story are set up in such a way that it makes sense. In this episode it just doesn't imo, he just comes off looking a knob.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2011/sep/20/doctor-who-too-complicated

Really don't think it's too complicated. This is just CiF fodder.
Don't understand the objections of those who claim the writers are being arrogant in not catering to casual viewers. Why should they? What's wrong with asking a little of your audience?

Right, because those well-known flops, the Harry Potter movies, were so easy for the casual viewer to dip into. Double sarcasm, oh yeah.

"What's the deal with this Twin Peaks show, it doesn't make any sense!"

A: it's actually not that complicated
B: I wish more shows required brains being on to watch them

https://careers.bbc.co.uk/fe/tpl_bbc02.asp?newms=jj&id=40162&newlang=

Someone here should apply (unless you hate the show and just turn up on the thread to vent your spleen about how terrible it is).

should I apply in Welsh

cer ati!

I bet I could write a better advert than that, for starters.

Surely the reason the Doctor left them behind is because he knows something very very bad is about to happen to him and doesn't want Amy and Rory anywhere near it?

Anyway the actual meat of the story was curiously uninvolving and I'm kind of missing straight-up evil aliens that want to kill people rather than poor lost scared animals in space or whatever. I strangely enjoyed the introspective bit though because I like stories that revolve around the Doctor being a selfish arse.

Next week's is the start of a two-parter right? I sort of feel the rest of the series, while good, hasn't really matched up the opening story and I'm stoked to find out what happens.

Surely the reason the Doctor left them behind is because he knows something very very bad is about to happen to him and doesn't want Amy and Rory anywhere near it?

Yes, which is why I keep bringing up how he basically chucked Sarah Jane out on the door; it was for a similar reason. It does make a certain amount of narrative sense that the Doctor would at least try to leave his companions in a place where they could live this time around, particularly after re-encountering SJ in his previous incarnation and having her tear him a new one over her abandonment.

next week is the one before the finale, so it might cue that up - esp with all the links to the silence we saw in the last ep with Corden's character in it