Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Some people are into vile wretches I guess.

haha I can't see Rory as vile no matter how hard I try

"hapless" otoh...

Maybe I've missed part of the discussion, but how is Rory a "vile wretch"? Not liking him is fine, but that's such a strong term it makes me think he's doing something truly awful that I can't remember.

Yeah, does "vile wretch" mean "sometimes a bit wimpy" now?

He's really gross about Amy. Possessive and paternalistic and disrespectful and condescending. I have a kneejerk reaction to him doing things like literally physically shoving Amy out of the way so he can tell someone not to look at her legs and all that "permission to hug" crap. And he's just always so sour and angry-sounding about everything, often without cause. And actually the whole guarding the Pandorica for 2000 years thing really rubs me the wrong way because it's hard not to see that ultimately as a gesture to secure Amy's love for all time or to at least guilt her into thinking she owed her love to him. Which I admit is not necessarily the subtext on the show, but is definitely something that a lot of Rory stans claim is true (that Amy owes him her love and that she doesn't deserve it).

That and when people try to claim that Amy is terrible for being bitter and hardened after 36 years without human contact or any guarantee of rescue just because Rory waited longer (in a totally different and voluntary situation) just makes me hate Rory all the more.

Also, the fact that he's not even on the TARDIS because he wants to be or because he enjoys it but because he feels that he needs to guard/protect Amy's vagina.

I think maybe you are still looking at their relationship as unchanged from the first half of season 5 rather than what it is now

The permission to hug stuff is all from series 6! And shoving her out of the way so someone can't comment on her legs is from the Christmas special. Like it seems like he's just on the TARDIS to police the exact length and frequency of her hugs and such. Because he certainly doesn't seem to want to be there for any other reason.

My main problem with her being bitter and hardened is that it was HER OWN DAMN FAULT. Her then turning around and saying she hated the doctor because he hadn't managed to rescue her until that time just smacks of the worst kind of entitlement.

I often quite like her character, though, so I think that sort of thing is mostly the fault of the writers failing to create something coherent in the series. I almost always like Rory, mind you. Not sure how he is paternalistic when he's clearly always been the weakest one in the relationship. Perhaps in the sense of ineffectually attempting to attain some sort of imagined manliness that he feels he should live up to instead of just accepting he's the ever-faithful, ever-falling behind Mr Pond? Completely sure of why he's possessive when his wife tries to shag and run off with someone else the night before they're getting married. But as Dan says, their relationship has gone through a fair amount since then, and neither of those things is totally applicable any more.

Couldn't remember the whole 'permission to hug' bit but found this blog post on it: http://natreides.tumblr.com/post/9713633997/the-doctor-rory-amy-permission-to-hug-thing

I think he's just wildly insecure, as it has been established many times who has (and has always had) the power in that relationship. I don't know why you'd read his guarding the Pandoricum for 2,000 year as some sort of devious controlling plot to ensure her submission. Well, I guess I know why, it just seems really silly to me.

The aspect about wanting to protect Amy can, I guess, seem creepy and possessive but honestly, it feels to me more like a fairly sensible reaction to the extraordinary amounts of danger the Doctor puts Amy in from week to week. If your significant other was running off to dangerous, often-universe threatening adventures, would you rather just stay home and hope it works out alright or would you like to be there? I can imagine just waiting around for the Doctor to turn up and say "yeah, Amy's dead, soz bruv" would be pretty awful.

Fans are annoying though. I can't really listen to the Smiths anymore because of so many years being around their fans, but I also know that's not the Smiths fault.

My main problem with her being bitter and hardened is that it was HER OWN DAMN FAULT. Her then turning around and saying she hated the doctor because he hadn't managed to rescue her until that time just smacks of the worst kind of entitlement.

I dunno, I think I'd be pretty understanding of someone who is pissed off that they've been left to grow old alone.

The flipside of this is obviously her nightmare visions in The Doctor's Wife, where Rory goes nuts about how much he hates Amy for leaving him behind.

Having reasons for possessiveness doesn't actually justify the behavior, nor is paternalism justified just because he seems to have less power in the relationship (and given that she doesn't even comment on his behavior and happily accepts it, I'd argue that's not even true). Like Rory has a choice. He doesn't have to be with Amy if her indiscretion bothered him that much. The choice of "stay with her but watch her vag like a hawk and treat her like a prized possession" is a shitty one that makes him a shitty person.

Also, I don't get how Amy's attitude was "entitled". She didn't wait a year, she waited decades upon decades in which she had a lot of time to grow bitter and twisted. She spent 36 years at war for her survival. It doesn't matter if it's her "own damn fault" (and it's a pretty heavy and unexpected punishment for pressing a button without thinking about it). x-posts

Wow, that is exactly not how I see any of their relationship. And "watched her vag like a hawk...?" is absurd.

By the way, I'm not dismissing the fact that he is insecure and she is bossy – but that seems kind of 'real,' maybe?

I don't know why you'd read his guarding the Pandoricum for 2,000 year as some sort of devious controlling plot to ensure her submission.

It's just hard not to see it that way given all his other Nice Guy tendencies.

But all the stuff about policing who can touch or look at her body isn't subtext, it's text. And it's gross as hell.

You're getting pretty close to reading any nice gesture anyone ever does as chock full of insidious desires. I think it's hard to come to that conclusion.

Rory is an insecure dude, but I don't think it's insane policing. She kind of lolz at it really.

Just because Amy doesn't have a problem with it doesn't mean I don't. Amy's a fictional character, she reflects the general view of the male writers that that kind of shit is okay and cute.

nor is paternalism justified just because he seems to have less power in the relationship

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that it isn't paternalism at all but rather, as everyone else has said, insecurity. Which is not a gendered phenomenon, though can result in attempts to conform to one's stereotyped gender, if lack of that is one of the charges often levelled against you.

The choice of "stay with her but watch her vag like a hawk and treat her like a prized possession" is a shitty one that makes him a shitty person.

Well, it would do if that was even close to how the character was portrayed.

all the stuff about policing who can touch or look at her body isn't subtext, it's text.

Um, where? You've given two examples, one of which I think is dealt with correctly in the blog post I linked up to. The other - trying to stop someone from looking at his partner's legs - seems again to be non-gendered: I would also try to stop someone from perving at my partner. Sorry if that makes me a wildly abusive, controlling asshole.

Beth Willis? Julie Gardener? Caroline Skinner?

turn around Remy, or this is going to be Mad Men all over again

(jokes, obv. <3 Melissa)

Matthew Weiner is calling from inside the writer's room.

It's called Dr Who, not Happy Ladies.

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that it isn't paternalism at all but rather, as everyone else has said, insecurity.

Don't see how one precludes the other.

Um, where? You've given two examples, one of which I think is dealt with correctly in the blog post I linked up to. The other - trying to stop someone from looking at his partner's legs - seems again to be non-gendered: I would also try to stop someone from perving at my partner. Sorry if that makes me a wildly abusive, controlling asshole.

Two examples is enough. Though there were two examples of "permission to hug", one in which he actually cut off the hug. And thanks for the loaded second statement. I do think it's abusive and controlling to physically shove someone out of the way to get someone to stop someone commenting upon or noticing their body before they've even had a chance to react to it themselves or decide how they want it to be dealt with, if the attention is unwanted. As for "when did you stop beating your wife" second half, I'll refrain from answering.

And I should probably bow out before this does turn into the Mad Men thread again. x-posts

It's called Doctor Who, not The Nurse Rory's Insecurities Variety Hour.

Don't see how one precludes the other.

understandable human emotions

I kind of want "watch her vag like a hawk" as a dn now.

^

I mean I do not see how you can not see that Amy is the semi-abusive controlling one in the relationship. She ran away with a strange man the night before her wedding; she's pushed/whacked/shoved more people than Rory by a country mile.

But, you know, she could abuse me.

Understandable human emotions lead to all varieties of reprehensible shit. Insecurity being pretty high on the list there. x-post

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I don't even know what to say to the idea that Amy is abusive tbh. Who has she hit that wasn't a direct threat to her?

Understandable human emotions lead to all varieties of reprehensible shit. Insecurity being pretty high on the list there. x-post

no doubt, but 1.) i think you're really exaggerating Rory's behaviour and 2.) the show has gone to pretty great lengths to allow us to understand why Rory acts the way he does, the basis of which isn't that he's an intrinsically shitty person because most of his actions are pretty understandable [unless, I guess, you exaggerate his behaviour)

I understand where you're coming from though.

In fairness to Rory, he was manipulated into watching her vag like a hawk for 2000 years by their future daughter.

PLASTC

I mean we've all been there haven't we lads?

well, this thread took an unwelcome turn

would you really want it any other way?

SPOILERS

I think it's way more insulting to Amy to paint her as a controlled victim.

I also think Amy's anger towards the Doctor was totally justified.

Anyway it struck me that there's now a time-shift in Amy and Rory's relationship regardless of which Amy he took back with him. The Amy in the Tardis is the one that's still excited and thinks it's all a big adventure, whereas Rory is closer to the older Amy - ie "how dare you keep blundering into these situations and endangering us?"

Of course it could all be forgotten next week, like their missing baby.

Even though the episode started off technically bewildering -- which stream is the one where people with the Plague are quarantined? -- but the emotional payoff is keen (if predictable).

It threw me too but I stopped caring pretty early on. It seems to me that the writer wanted to tell a story about a man having to choose between the same woman at two different ages, and the whole sciency-fictiony premise was constructed expressly in service of that story. Analysing why the robots can't see squares is missing the point imo.

Also the fact that the episode is named 'The Girl Who Waited' and the fact that Amy has basically spent 87% of her life waiting for men (yes I'm ignoring Roryturion for the minute) adds gravity to Amy's horrific situation as a lonely 55 year old and underlines the massive scale of her 'raggedy man' hostility toward the Doctor.

Re Amy's and Rory's relationship: It plays out remarkably like people I know who met at the age of like seven and stayed together for 20–30 years, i.e. mutual distrust, uneven respect, one flirting/cheating on the other with little consequence, etc. He's a shit to her, she's a shit to him and they remain together – totally believable and real.

Don't get how Rory's being a shit at all here. He didn't leave her waiting for 36 years, wibbly wobbly timey wimey did - for him it was a matter of hours and he was doing his best to do whatever it took to save her as quickly as possible. Yes he's possessive and insecure but I don't think he's quite the vagina hawk he's being painted as.

Also the fact that the episode is named 'The Girl Who Waited'

Wasn't this a direct reference to Roryturion? iirc the Doctor called him "the boy who waited" in that episode.

that in turn was a reference to the doctor calling amy 'the girl who waited', when she waited for him as kid

People waiting for people is the whole Time Traveller's Wife concept that Moffat built his show around (c.f. Doctor/River)

Well, that episode made Mrs Chuck cry, YET AGAIN.

The hysterical emotional pitch of this season is getting a bit exhausting -- remember when we thought Moffat was too subtle? -- but at the same time it's interesting to see the show try something new. This one was so OTT it reminded me of one of the Tezuka "Phoenix" stories set in the future.

Also to note: Karen Pond's acting in this was genuinely impressive.

Well that sucked.

― Leee, Lord of Wtfomgham (Leee), Saturday, September 10, 2011 6:26 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

didn't mind it. but that's three episodes running that shared quite a lot - claustrophobic environments, inner fears, malfunctioning aliens. Kinda want one where they just get out of the TARDIS and explore an alien planet.

Relinquishing assistants was decent. Rory talking about helping someone conquer a stammer/actual nursing being about helping with real nightmares as opp. to the doctor was good as well. Actual alieny stuff bit dull.

Anyone else find all the introspection can get a little wearying? In terms of TARDIS interrelations but also how the mechanics of defeating the alien work?

Also, realise it's possibly a function of having independent episodes by different writers, but the way River Pond/time baby has just been completely forgotten is a little weird.

Favourite episode so far this series.

Yeah, the continuity of this season seems pretty fucked up, particularly in characterisation terms. I liked the episode as it was, though they overplayed the annoying Walliams comedy character, and I also didn't get how easily Amy lost her faith in the doctor while he was still there with her and after he'd worked out the monster fed on faith and said it OUT LOUD WHILE SHE WAS THERE.

Hoping that there's some actual weird time anomaly that explains the stupidity of some of these narrative things but I doubt it, though the Doctor-Rory "you're talking in the past tense" thing was interesting.

not seen it, btw. just thought that was the traditional first post after a new ep now.