lol @ this list
voted Screamadelica
― I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:29 (twelve years ago) link
Crikey, I appear to own 15 of these on CD, plus two more on CDR. And the only album I've never heard all the way through is M People's Elegant Slumming.
― mike t-diva, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:30 (twelve years ago) link
yuck
― let me save you some time - yes, you are probably anti-semantic (jjjusten), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:34 (twelve years ago) link
v. tempted to vote M-People but will probly vote Roni
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:34 (twelve years ago) link
and Screamadelica is their worst album.
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:35 (twelve years ago) link
01. boy in da corner02. let england shake03. dummy
― prolego, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:36 (twelve years ago) link
2005: Antony and the Johnsons - I Am A Bird Now2006: Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not2007: The Klaxons - Myths Of The Near Future2008: Elbow - The Seldom Seen Kid
Feel my eyes glazing over completely at this run.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:36 (twelve years ago) link
Dummy, easy.
― brotherlovesdub, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:43 (twelve years ago) link
Some good and great albums on this list, but this is a grueling sequence:
1998: Gomez - Bring It On1999: Talvin Singh - OK2000: Badly Drawn Boy - The Hour Of Bewilderbeast
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:44 (twelve years ago) link
Not a huge fan of any of these really. Many of them are albums I feel I'm "supposed" to revere, partly due to their canonisation. If I had to go for one it'd have to be Screamadelica or perhaps Different Class.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:45 (twelve years ago) link
Dummy, by quite some distance.
― A little bit like Peter Crouch but with more mobility (ShariVari), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:47 (twelve years ago) link
Duh Dummy.
― LeRooLeRoo, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:56 (twelve years ago) link
and Screamadelica is their worst album.― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, September 7, 2011 6:35 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, September 7, 2011 6:35 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest
u crazy
― õ_Ò (Pillbox), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:59 (twelve years ago) link
assuming alfred's never heard Sonic Flower Groove for a start
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 22:59 (twelve years ago) link
A whole lot of mediocrity on here barring PJ and Portishead. Thats what happens when you get commitees. Badly Drawn Boy is better than The Unutterable Fall? And thats just one example.
― Damo Suzuki's Parrot, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:02 (twelve years ago) link
yikes
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i_qxQztHRI (Princess TamTam), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:02 (twelve years ago) link
Screamadelica - yeah okay can't front still got a lot of goodness but it's the producers' record and it's probably half an hour too long at leastSuede - yeah okay can't front some good maudlin mopery but it wd make a good EP maybeElegant Slumming - just goes heavy hit after heavy hit plus the outrage is still hilarious 18 years onDummy - can't front still pretty classic fucked if i ever want to listen to it tho which is a poor showing for a drunky blues record in our houseDifferent Class - i'm mad fond of "Something Changed", the rest is yeah well it was a different time wannit?New Forms - this is still fucking A in most respectsBring It On - Captain QuornheartOK - this is a perfectly dece record as long as you never have to hear a BBC journo talk about itThe Hour of Bewilderbeast - should've been The 20 Minutes of Bewilderbeast amirite?Stories from the City - me and PJ only really hit off on the occasional track tbh
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:14 (twelve years ago) link
I'm going to listen to the whole lot before voting. A minority view, I'm sure, but I liked that Gomez album a lot at the time. Also, people round here have been far too dismissive of the Arctic Monkeys debut. Can't imagine that Badly Drawn Boy has worn too well, and subsequent releases have dented my love of the Antony & the Johnsons. Have avoided the Portishead debut for years, due to over-playing at the time, and Franz Ferdinand's initial appeal quickly palled. Need to re-assess the Roni Size - suspect it might hold up well. In my refractory period with the xx - still feels too soon to revisit.
― mike t-diva, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:17 (twelve years ago) link
1992: Primal Scream - Screamadelica
SHITE
1993: Suede - Suede
1994: M People - Elegant Slumming
this is okay
1995: Portishead - Dummy
AMAZING
1996: Pulp - Different Class
1997: Roni Size / Reprazent - New Forms
okay i guess
1998: Gomez - Bring It On
BEYOND SHITE
1999: Talvin Singh - OK
GIVE A FUCK
2000: Badly Drawn Boy - The Hour Of Bewilderbeast
FUCKING TWENTY PENCE BUSKER, FUCKING DIE
2001: P J Harvey - Stories From The City, Stories From The Sea
GODDESS REWARDED FOR SLUMMING IT, PROOF OF MERCURY PANEL'S SHITE TASTE
2002: Ms. Dynamite - A Little Deeper
LOVE, WILL ALWAYS DEFEND
2003: Dizzee Rascal - Boy In Da Corner
FLUKE AMAZING WINNER
2004: Franz Ferdinand - Franz Ferdinand
2005: Antony and the Johnsons - I Am A Bird Now
NEARLY LISTENABLE BUT...NOT QUITE
2006: Arctic Monkeys - Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not
BEYOND BEYOND SHITE
2007: The Klaxons - Myths Of The Near Future
LOLLLLLLLLL (AT EVERYONE WHO LIKED THIS)
2008: Elbow - The Seldom Seen Kid
COMPLETELY BAFFLING, ALSO SHITE
2009: Speech Debelle - Speech Therapy
BLESS YOU
2010: the xx - XX
2011: PJ Harvey - Let England Shake
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:20 (twelve years ago) link
A Little Deeper - ironic titleBoy in Da Corner - ok this is still unfuckwithableFranz Ferdinand - family connection precludes me honestly assessing this, still think half of it bangsI Am a Bird Now - love the dude, fuck all y'allWhatever People Blah Blah Blah - wasn't going to student discos by this stage in life jeezus i hate that one that goes "what a shabby man" u smug twatsMyths of the Near Future - step away from the Grace record you cuntsElbow - not unpleasant when they're mumblingSpeech Debelle - can't front never heard it, will side with anything that turd Corden doesn't likeXX - like Dummy except i couldn't be arsed in the first placeLet England Shake - it's 2011, i've got a lot on my plate, let's just leave it eh?
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:21 (twelve years ago) link
if i was asked for the worst in this lot, i would say pulp, and if asked for the best, i would say ms dynamite
both on principle
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:22 (twelve years ago) link
god pulp really are the fucking worst band ever though. i literally want to punch jarvis DICKHEAD cocker in the face
yeah I don't really get where Alfred's coming from on this one. I mean they have some TERRIBLE records
― I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:24 (twelve years ago) link
i didn't know antony was a britishes!
voted dummy
― mookieproof, Wednesday, 7 September 2011 23:25 (twelve years ago) link
Has to be between the first two. Going for "Suede" in the long run, just ahead of "Screamadelica". Otherwise, Elbow, Pulp and Franz Ferdinand are the best efforts here.
― Hongroe (Geir Hongro), Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:00 (twelve years ago) link
It looks like I'm the only one voting for the one I'm voting for.
― Mark G, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:04 (twelve years ago) link
Speech who?
― Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:05 (twelve years ago) link
Probably should have said "Vanishing Point is a more deserving winner," but we can make these claims about a lot of these artists' catalogues.
― Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:07 (twelve years ago) link
I love Elegant Slumming, Different Class and Stories From The City, Stories From The Sea
went with Elegant Slumming
― gospodin simmel, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:23 (twelve years ago) link
pulp or dizzee. don't know if i've heard any of these in full since franz f.
― strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:25 (twelve years ago) link
Such a zeitgeisty collection of recordslike, "what was your favourite age?"
― twyla, the curator (Ówen P.), Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:40 (twelve years ago) link
I rep for Hour of the Bewilderbeast, but I won't vote for it.
― Gukbe, Thursday, 8 September 2011 01:08 (twelve years ago) link
I love a thread where ILX can amusingly trash a load of shit so-called experts used to adore. More please.
― that's not my post, Thursday, 8 September 2011 02:40 (twelve years ago) link
1-dizzee2-arctics3-portis
― pandemic, Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:36 (twelve years ago) link
We could have, and "Vanishing Point" is also an excellent album, but outside "contrarian" ILM, "Screamadelica" is generally considered to be their masterpiece, among critics and indie audiences alike.
― Hongroe (Geir Hongro), Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:38 (twelve years ago) link
god pulp really are the fucking worst band ever though. i literally want to punch jarvis DICKHEAD cocker in the face― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:22 (9 hours ago) Bookmark
― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 September 2011 00:22 (9 hours ago) Bookmark
yeah, worse than hitler
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 08:47 (twelve years ago) link
there was a band called hitler, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwsWGLLub30
This is what I found...
― Mark G, Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:01 (twelve years ago) link
Its no good taking the piss out of Michael Jackson when your legacy is a load of landfill brit-pop shite and a decades worth of Peel session debris. Pulp were truly dreadful, just pumped up chancers who got lucky. The fifth form doggerel of JC on Common People is the apex of absolute shiteness. The Auteurs had already nailed it with The Upper Classes. Looking at this Mercury list makes me feel queasy and angry at how its nearly always the tossers that win in life.
― Damo Suzuki's Parrot, Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:28 (twelve years ago) link
winning the mercury prize |= winning in life
― Upt0eleven, Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:35 (twelve years ago) link
Hey, Luke Haines, welcome to ILM! (xp)
― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:36 (twelve years ago) link
Talentless chancers, yeah! Coming round here, punching our peados - who do they think they are? All those singles were rubbish weren't they? Disco 2000, Es & Whizz, Common People, Do You Remember the First Time, Babies - who likes those? A: No one! We only bought them to throw in the bin.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:38 (twelve years ago) link
You've just reminded me of that viz cartoon, in which Badly Drawn Boy is desperately busking outside Natwest, and the caption below is "Badly Overdrawn Boy".
― Daniel Giraffe, Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:39 (twelve years ago) link
My favourite Viz strip was "Vidal Baboon"
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:39 (twelve years ago) link
Luke Haines otm
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:40 (twelve years ago) link
The Auteurs had already nailed it with The Upper Classes.
Did Luke Haines have a strand of uncertainty with regard his position in the social strata in the lyrics? Or was it pure invective?
I mean, I also wrote a version of a similar scenario, way back in the day. It was called "Lichtenstein". It wasn't great, but.
― Mark G, Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:41 (twelve years ago) link
I voted for Different Class, by the way, risking the opprobrium of various people on here.
― Daniel Giraffe, Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:42 (twelve years ago) link
xxxpost Vidal Baboon LOL
― Daniel Giraffe, Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:43 (twelve years ago) link
i gots no problem with people repping for pedestrian indie as long as they don't mind a little banter in return
― placeholder for weak pun (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:44 (twelve years ago) link
so otm
― seasoning sauce all over me (tpp), Thursday, 8 September 2011 09:45 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not even 2 minutes in and all I keep thinking is "won't someone save that poor baby goat oh wait that's his singing voice"― Tal Berkowitz - Vaccine advocate (DJP), Thursday, 8 September 2011 21:35 (14 minutes ago) Bookmark
― Tal Berkowitz - Vaccine advocate (DJP), Thursday, 8 September 2011 21:35 (14 minutes ago) Bookmark
If Antony and Joanna Newsom did an album together I think your head might explode ;-)
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 20:51 (twelve years ago) link
Not a very big fan at all, but I'm always kind of impressed at how powerful Arctic Monkeys can sound compared to a lot of mid-00's indie. Speaking of soundsystems, if you'd ever attended an indie night circa that year, it blew the competition out the window.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 20:52 (twelve years ago) link
yeah actually the thing that is striking me about this is that there is an unambiguous, driving rhythm section here; the crispness of the drums in particular is really viscerally satisfying and definitely making me more amenable to this than I would normally expect (see above Gomez reaction for contrast)
― Tal Berkowitz - Vaccine advocate (DJP), Thursday, 8 September 2011 20:55 (twelve years ago) link
xxxxpost you're allowed not to like the album, but all the stuff about sanitising jungle and coffee tables is received wisdom.
my secondary issue lies in the ostensible justification of drum'n'bass by trying to compare it to another completely different style of music (jazz) so as to make it more palatable to non-dance listeners when really it should be appreciated on its own merits (i.e. as dance music).
There is a long history of dance music that uses jazz (and soul and funk and reggae and hip hop and etc.) samples though, and the point of this by and large is not to make the music more palatable to non-dance listeners, but to generate friction between the sample source and the groove.
Some idiot critics and listeners might seize on that in the wrong way (as per your quote) but it's pretty clear that this is not what Roni Size was doing. I'd say the first Goldie album (which I like too) is a much more appropriate target of that criticism.
We wouldn't complain about, say, Moodymann in these terms - mainly because he's never crossed over as much. But this is why working backwards from outcome (winning the mercury music prize) to intention is so fraught.
― Tim F, Thursday, 8 September 2011 20:58 (twelve years ago) link
oh I kind of glossed over Badly Drawn Boy; I WONDER WHY
― Tal Berkowitz - Vaccine advocate (DJP), Thursday, 8 September 2011 20:59 (twelve years ago) link
I'm kind of impressed with Klaxons' attempt to do something different, even if it's mostly terrible. At least they have a drummer.
― Tal Berkowitz - Vaccine advocate (DJP), Thursday, 8 September 2011 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
Sampling sources from other styles doesn't compare you to those styles necessarily. If I were to make a juke track that sampled Jacques Brel, Chicago bass wouldn't be the new chanson. But I get your point - I was put off New Forms because of how drum'n'bass was then being pedalled, mostly by pundits and journos and bandwagonjumpers rather than the artists themselves. So yeah, it is unfair to pass judgement in that way. I guess in some ways it's easy to get put off by external media rather than the message itself. Electro was a great laugh until Topman changed their whole line to day-glo pink and yellow and then it just started getting a bit sickening. As a peripheral listener, the younger me would have been more influenced and subsequently put-off by such, as you say, idiotic quotes.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 21:07 (twelve years ago) link
y'all the Speech Debelle album is great, I think many of you are overly harsh re: the Tracy Chapmanisms because IMO they work
― Tal Berkowitz - Vaccine advocate (DJP), Thursday, 8 September 2011 22:17 (twelve years ago) link
Not sure Roni Size's Reprazent tour was better than the album. I really enjoyed the album on release but walked out of the live show.
― brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 8 September 2011 22:27 (twelve years ago) link
So I'm giving this another spin before a bit.
― It was a Thursday night. I was working late... (dog latin), Thursday, 8 September 2011 23:40 (twelve years ago) link
"for a bit"
Do you remember the thread started when I made ill-advised claims about Underworld's drum programming and 90s d 'n b, Tim F? I had a look for it, but couldn't find it. Thought it might be pertinent here.
― Neil S, Friday, 9 September 2011 08:10 (twelve years ago) link
xp DNB closes to rap is true, pretty much all old school dnb'ers were hip hop heads before the whole rave thing, even listen to alot of early uk dance stuff it has alot of hip hop in it(bomb the bass, depth charge etc)
― X-101, Monday, 12 September 2011 12:32 (twelve years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Monday, 19 September 2011 23:01 (twelve years ago) link
OK, so I need to make my mind up quickly on this. Interesting to revisit these in order. Some confirmed as enduring classics (Portishead), others as played-out passing pleasures (Franz Ferdinand), others as unarguable WTF-were-they-thinkings (dear God, the M People album is shockingly poor once you get past the singles), and there were a couple whose appeal was lost on me at the time, but which I can now get right behind. So, with that in mind, and to my slight amazement, I'm voting for Roni Size/Reprazent.
― mike t-diva, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 09:50 (twelve years ago) link
he M People album is shockingly GREAT once you get past the singles
― gospodin simmel, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 10:05 (twelve years ago) link
Went "Dummy". A worst poll would be more interesting IMO.
― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 11:19 (twelve years ago) link
That happened in 2007. M People walked it, followed by Gomez.
WORSTEST ALBUM TO WIN MERCURY MUSICS PRIZE!
― mike t-diva, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 13:05 (twelve years ago) link
i just can't with people who think pulp are better than m people
― i asked for "HALF" a glass of wine, because i am TEMPERENT (lex pretend), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:14 (twelve years ago) link
can't what?
Have Sex / a pint / dance / what?
― Mark G, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 14:21 (twelve years ago) link
I have had a pint with Lex so it can't be that.
― Science, you guys. Science. (DL), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 15:02 (twelve years ago) link
Hey, me too.. and then we went to a rave, so...
― Yo wait a minute man, you better think about the world (dog latin), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 15:03 (twelve years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 23:01 (twelve years ago) link
portishead my arse.
― piscesx, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 01:01 (twelve years ago) link
Portisarse - Bummy
― Yo wait a minute man, you better think about the world (dog latin), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 09:31 (twelve years ago) link
fuck this shit
― gospodin simmel, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:00 (twelve years ago) link
I am more confused by Badly Drawn Boy coming in 5th; regardless of how I feel about them, the top 4 albums have enough recognizable support around here to make their placings a given but I thought everyone detested BDB
― the tax avocado (DJP), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:01 (twelve years ago) link
(ftr I think the correct album won)
I don't. (detest I mean, I also think the right album won)...
I dunno, BDB... The album is great, but he seemed to have a very steep 'run out of ideas' curve.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:04 (twelve years ago) link
.. also, he seemed to have a very strong 'irritation' factor, one small thing going wrong could cause a mighty strop on-stage. That tends to upset people, and rightly so.
Every one talked about Elliot Smith being 'better', but the one CD I got of his, ummm... Nice enough, but didn't really win me over.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:06 (twelve years ago) link
'Once Around The Block' is a fantastic song. At the time it made me buy BDB's album, which was a huge disappointment. Apart from that song, which to this day is great.
― 'Main Shop of Love' Gigolo (Le Bateau Ivre), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:08 (twelve years ago) link
i love a lot of BDB songs, esp from HOTB and the about a boy soundtrack. and one or two from the next one. after that he became entirely unlistenable. some of the most grating shit i've made myself listen to.
― witchho (zachlyon), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 19:02 (twelve years ago) link
voted xx just over dummy. similar albums in some ways - they both feel real modern. products of their times perhaps - dummy is all 90s bombast (i remember really liking "roads" at first, which quickly faded) while xx is pretty subdued and cautious. fwiw i find third and xx super super similar, and at times i wonder if third is the superior album to dummy. def still feeling my xx pick, and real surprised dummy stomped it so hard
― fennel cartwright, Thursday, 22 September 2011 00:44 (twelve years ago) link
"Bombast"? Dummy? "Bombast"?
― Science, you guys. Science. (DL), Thursday, 22 September 2011 16:44 (twelve years ago) link
"roads" is basically THE most melodramatic song ever
a lot of dummy is pretty chill but there are still some srsly emo lyrics there
― fennel cartwright, Thursday, 22 September 2011 16:56 (twelve years ago) link
Missed this poll, but echo 'the right album won'
― Mister Potato shares Manchester United’s commitment to (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 22 September 2011 21:12 (twelve years ago) link
the snore album snored
― Dios mio! This kid is FUN to hit! (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 September 2011 07:08 (twelve years ago) link
Aren't all these albums, by definition, overplayed though? And if that's the case, any winner could be accused of being a boring choice?
― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Friday, 23 September 2011 08:18 (twelve years ago) link
yeah exackly this is why lists, polls, awards, and shit that wins lists polls and awards sucks and is wank
― Dios mio! This kid is FUN to hit! (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 September 2011 08:20 (twelve years ago) link
I don't think anyone could accuse Speech Debelle's album of being overplayed.
― Science, you guys. Science. (DL), Friday, 23 September 2011 08:27 (twelve years ago) link
Poor Speech Debelle
― the tax avocado (DJP), Friday, 23 September 2011 13:07 (twelve years ago) link
Speech Impediment Debelle
― Dios mio! This kid is FUN to hit! (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 September 2011 14:30 (twelve years ago) link
When she won, did peopl eyell out "Speech! Speech! Speech! " ?
That would explain her length of award acceptance.
― Mark G, Friday, 23 September 2011 14:41 (twelve years ago) link
Speech Débile
― Yo wait a minute man, you better think about the world (dog latin), Friday, 23 September 2011 15:01 (twelve years ago) link
@campbellclaret Alastair Campbell met Speech Debelle at a Labour/arts do last night. Really nice, and she didn't laugh when I showed her the song I wrote about Elvis5 minutes ago via web
― lex pretend, Friday, 23 September 2011 15:31 (twelve years ago) link
Never before have I seen so much irrelevence in one tweet.
― Matt DC, Friday, 23 September 2011 15:35 (twelve years ago) link
would love to hear that tbh
― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Friday, 23 September 2011 15:36 (twelve years ago) link
He later had a discussion about Avatar and vuvuzelas with Hull City manager Phil Brown.
― Matt DC, Friday, 23 September 2011 15:40 (twelve years ago) link
See, i have no idea if you're joking about that or not
― pandemic, Friday, 23 September 2011 16:00 (twelve years ago) link