JAZZ IS LIKE HEROIN TO ME ! ! ! ~~~~ ILM POST-1945 JAZZ ALBUMS POLL - THE RESULTS COUNTDOWN (now counting top 25!)

But you're not just denigrating these records for their spiritual hat-wearing. You're also saying that they shouldn't be here, or they should only be allowed token entries.

And yes, I'm familiar with enough of the 'spiritual hat' records to say that they are more interesting than the Modern Jazz Quartet, although I like the latter.

Granny Dainger, he wasn't merely "pointing it out," he was being condescending "LOL oh you ridiculous hipster plebes" about it.

While failing to explain why his alternatives were somehow more valid.

at this point I kind of hope deej has a jaymc-style spreadsheet of in-depth sociological statistical data regarding music consumption and critical consensus for every genre, cuz the degree of certainty with which he makes vast generalizations about various canons/listening audiences/record collector scum would suggest that he does

xp

and in the 250 he has far more than his stature in the jazz world

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011

contra shakey i think this is true, but railing against stuff that got six votes is eh

anyway my only point was that calling sanders alice coltrane and sun ra outsider jazz is a misrepresentation imo

pharoah and alice not so much, but Sun Ra...? come on now

his whole schtick was being an outsider! that's how he saw himself

well the term was being used to critique the whole poll so...

BUT PHAROAH AND ALICE WORE HATS

its perhaps an exaggeration but the gist of it is otm -- theres a specific bias towards a specific kind of jazz ... yall can talk about how much better jazz harpists are than mjq it doesnt make it fact

interesting that (along with ahmad jamal) there's no modern jazz quartet here, either (right?). from what i understand, they were one of the biggest acts of the time, but they're stature has gone down considerably. i suppose it's arguable that they were too straight ahead, not iconoclastic enough, no spiritual hats (though they did cover ornette!). great records however.

― tylerw, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (5 minutes ago) Permalink

And the thing is John Lewis did lots of cool 'out' experimentation mixing jazz and 20th century classical music. MJQ are certainly on the easier listening end but there are hints of that in their music too. I kind of wish I nominated some "third stream" stuff like John Lewis or George Russell -- it's really fucking cool stuff.

yeah he was being condescending at first, but he's backtracked a lil and at this point seems to be willing to accept just an acknowledgment that this list skews towards spiritual hat

This automagically makes their music: less worthy than "straight jazz."

Also, harps clearly aren't musical instruments.

not even really sure what "outsider jazz" would refer to -- like you said, sun ra played w/ fletcher henderson. alice coltrane learned from bud powell. pharoah sanders -- well, he came from an r&b background right? maybe that's outsider.

can we have a spiritual hat subtotal, what are the real proportions here

While failing to explain why his alternatives were somehow more valid.

― The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Friday, September 2, 2011 1:56 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its a critique observing how when a certain type dominates, other things are excluded. i didnt even try to claim which ones are 'more correct,' just observing the biases inherent in the results. observing an imbalance or preference in the voting pool doesnt mean that i think my favs are somehow more 'valid'

im sorry im makin you think about why you like stuff, though.

not even really sure what "outsider jazz" would refer to -- like you said, sun ra played w/ fletcher henderson. alice coltrane learned from bud powell. pharoah sanders -- well, he came from an r&b background right? maybe that's outsider.

― tylerw, Friday, September 2, 2011 2:00 PM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

how about, stuff that was going against the grain of jazz' narrative?

stuff that was unusual, or resisted the jazz mainstream?

im simply pointing out that contra emil.y that just because it did this doesnt make it superior

You love the attention, don't you? Sometimes I wonder about the penis size/trolling correlation.

& yeah, hurting, the third stream stuff seems kind of forgotten to a certain extent -- too arty, too self-conscious seeming? i don't know. i do like a lot of the john lewis records i've heard w/ or w/o MJQ.

going against the grain of jazz' narrative
i dunno, by the time the late 60s rolled around, any "jazz narrative" had kinda gone out the window.

You love the attention, don't you? Sometimes I wonder about the penis size/trolling correlation.

― The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Friday, September 2, 2011 2:02 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol ur the one making all the personal remarks. who's trolling here exactly

My take on Alice Coltrane: it's nice stuff but how many records of it do you need? Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

I think Alice is better than John.

deej is pretty otm now. this list is in a way saying straight jazz or CTI-style smooth jazz isn't as remarkable as space hat weirdo jazz, and people are pretending that...i won't even call it a bias...preference doesn't exist.

& yeah, hurting, the third stream stuff seems kind of forgotten to a certain extent -- too arty, too self-conscious seeming? i don't know. i do like a lot of the john lewis records i've heard w/ or w/o MJQ.

― tylerw, Friday, September 2, 2011 3:02 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Again, I think partly a timing thing. John Lewis was experimenting with modern classical at a time when the dominant "experimental" thrust in jazz was to get away from European idioms and toward more "pure" African/African American idioms. Obivously there's a lot of politics wrapped up in this too. Even hard bop was partly about getting away from standards, moving toward a canon of compositions by black jazz musicians.

i feel like more art blakey would be in my personal mindgarden list too

going against the grain of jazz' narrative
i dunno, by the time the late 60s rolled around, any "jazz narrative" had kinda gone out the window.

^^^^

there are pretty clear dominant trends in jazz from Louis Armstrong up through the early 60s - but after that it burst really wide. free jazz, soul jazz, fusion, etc. people sometimes privelege boundary-expanding periods like this, they're diversity and sense of experimentation is often a joy to behold. but by the late 60s I dunno if you could really say Alice or Pharoah or Herbie were going against the grain per se, they were very much a part of movements going on around them. Ra a little less so because he was such a contrarian and was "ahead of his time" in various ways, and never hewed strictly to prevailing norms (altho his nods to funk and disco in the 70s are hilarious and awesome)

theres some good hard bop here but not as much as you'd expect. how much jimmy smith made it too?

There's a lot to be said about the leanings of this list but, personally, there's not a single album I dislike on here so far (having heard ~90% of it.) I've never seen a top 100 or even top 50 list where that's the case.

Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

not really feeling you on this, all 3 have insanely diverse catalogs.

xp to hurting yeah politics of the time played a big role i imagine -- taking what some were beginning to see as "black folk art" and trying to force it into bed with "modern classical" is going to ruffle some feathers. but aside from that, it's interesting music.
love this, maybe even more than ornette's version!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OucWYBeBoo

Someone could throw in solitary confinement with all these records and I would die happy and spiritually fulfilled.

Yes, s.morris, exactly. You could pick any of these albums so far at random and it's likely they'll range from good to transcendent.

HATS notwithstanding.

I would wear all those hats tbh.

Me too. Now let's just sit back and wait for more insightful ~~~~ observations ~~~~

do you guys like this hat y/n
http://rlv.zcache.com/jazz_piano_hat-p148055578880129932qz14_400.jpg

your 'i would snuggle up with all these albums in an a-bomb shelter forever!!' comments def qualify as 'insightful'

the dick-size jokes too

~deep thoughts~

pretty sure I said that, deej, not Turangalila. You're raging.

How many jazz harp albums are in this list so far? It doesn't seem to me that it's dominating

ws lumping folks together
i have no problem, on an individual basis, w/ any of the albums in this list

Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

not really feeling you on this, all 3 have insanely diverse catalogs.

― I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, September 2, 2011 3:08 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah I've heard the variety. Some Sun Ra is great, but overall I find the arkestra very clunky and clumsy and not very hard-swinging (in the broadest sense). I like the solo keyboard stuff on Solar Myth Approach a lot.

Does Alice Coltrane have any variety though? Everything I hear sounds pretty samey to me.

yall can talk about how much better jazz harpists are than mjq it doesnt make it fact

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011 7:59 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

And you can say the opposite and it doesn't make it fact either. How exciting for us all.

its a critique observing how when a certain type dominates, other things are excluded. i didnt even try to claim which ones are 'more correct,' just observing the biases inherent in the results. observing an imbalance or preference in the voting pool doesnt mean that i think my favs are somehow more 'valid'

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011 8:01 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I think the problem is that you veer between the two. Sometimes it is just an analysis - though I will say that from what I know of this list the 'dominating type' is at least partially constructed by the fact that we're talking about it the most, and then when something pops up that fits everybody points at it and goes 'look look we were right' - but at other times you've definitely gone on the attack about it.

For the record I am not pissed off about your contributions to this thread at all, but that doesn't mean I'm going to think you're right.

I make no claims towards insightfulness, that's why I've been a lurker for 8 years. I was just sayin' is all y'know.