JAZZ IS LIKE HEROIN TO ME ! ! ! ~~~~ ILM POST-1945 JAZZ ALBUMS POLL - THE RESULTS COUNTDOWN (now counting top 25!)

btw so far in the top 100 Sun Ra has a massive 2 entries.

interesting that (along with ahmad jamal) there's no modern jazz quartet here, either (right?). from what i understand, they were one of the biggest acts of the time, but they're stature has gone down considerably. i suppose it's arguable that they were too straight ahead, not iconoclastic enough, no spiritual hats (though they did cover ornette!). great records however.

I kind of hate the way the most interesting music seems to be discarded precisely for its quality of being interesting. It just sounds exactly the same to me as the anti-intellectual bullshit spouted on the 'overrated literary works' thread.

and stop ignoring hank mobley!

You haven't, though. How did you reach the conclusion that people necessarily like Pharoah and Sun Ra and Alice because of their extramusical connotations? You're the one focusing on that.

― The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Friday, September 2, 2011 1:48 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actually, you're the one who brought that up oh defensive one

btw so far in the top 100 Sun Ra has a massive 2 entries.

― Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Friday, September 2, 2011

lol

it's impossible to untangle musical vs extramusical qualities w/r/t one's picks here. deej is right to point out that the list veers more towards weirdo spiritual hat jazz than a traditional best of jazz list does. don't know why everyone keeps acting like it doesn't, argues with him, rather than just owning your preferences and sensibilities.

I kind of hate the way the most interesting music seems to be discarded precisely for its quality of being interesting. It just sounds exactly the same to me as the anti-intellectual bullshit spouted on the 'overrated literary works' thread.

― emil.y, Friday, September 2, 2011 1:49 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is totally misunderstanding. the thing is that its NOT more interesting, or its more interesting only in the most superficial senses. i mean, are you arguing then that MJQ are ~not~ interesting bcuz they were 'straight ahead jazz' or that there might not be value in the variations present w/in jazz that doesnt go in for extravagant costuming, unusual instruments or, say, funky hard bop sound rather than a hyperspiritual vision quest

btw so far in the top 100 Sun Ra has a massive 2 entries.

― Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Friday, September 2, 2011

lol

― zvookster, Friday, September 2, 2011 1:50 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and in the 250 he has far more than his stature in the jazz world

and stop ignoring hank mobley!

I admit I don't remember anything about Soul Station atm :(

then go listen!

and in the 250 he has far more than his stature in the jazz world

would think that at some point you would stop appealing to the semi-mythical external "world" that always happens to validate your opinions

you do this a lot

sigh

har, tbh, find me two jazz critics in the jazz world who agree on anything ...

And here is a recap of 250-11 for those just catching up

250 Thelonious Monk - Criss Cross (1963) 359 4
249 Herbie Hancock - Blow-Up (1966) 364 3
248 gil evans - out of the cool (1960) 365 3
247 Clifford Brown and Max Roach at Basin Street (1956) 367 3
246 Charles Mingus - Blues And Roots (1959) 369 4
245 Sun Ra - Strange Strings (1966) 373 4
243(tie)Sonny Sharrock - Guitar (1986) 376 2
243(tie)243 Milford Graves - Babi (1977) 376 2
242 Art Ensemble Of Chicago - Message To Our Folks (1969) 377 3
240(tie)Peter Brötzmann - Nipples (1969) 377 4
240(tie)Elvin Jones - Dear John C. (1965) 377 4
239 Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata (1971) 380 2
238 Sun Ra - Other Planes of There (1966) 381 3
237 John Coltrane - Live at Birdland (1963) 384 4
236 Herbie Hancock - Thrust (1974) 386 3
235 Les McCann & Eddie Harris - Swiss Movement (1969) 387 3
234 Derek Bailey - Ballads (2002) 387 5
233 Max Roach - We Insist! Freedom Now Suite (1960) 394 4
232 Roland Kirk - Blacknuss 398 (1972) 4
231 Sun Ra - The Nubians Of Plutonia (1966) 402
230 Bill Evans & Jim Hall - Undercurrent (1963) 412 4
229 Bobby Hutcherson - San Francisco (1970) 413 3
228 Miles Davis - Miles Davis Quartet (1954) 415 4
227 Marion Brown Quartet - Marion Brown Quartet (19670 415 5
226 Miles Davis - Miles Davis and the Modern Jazz Giants (1954-56) 417 4
225 Grant Green - Street Of Dreams (1964) 422 4
224 Wes Montgomery - The Incredible Jazz Guitar (1960) 431 4
223 Archie Shepp - Yasmina, a black woman (1969) 432 4
222 Eric Dolphy - Iron Man (1963) 436 4
221 Ornette Coleman - Ornette! (1961) 436 5
220 Bill Evans - Portrait In Jazz (1959) 440 3
219 McCoy Tyner - Song of the New World (1973) 453 Points, 4 votes
218 Baby Face Willette - Stop And Listen (1961) 457 (Points) 5 votes
217 Pharoah Sanders - Summun Bukmun Umyun (1970) 458 Points, 5 votes
216 Sun Ra - Lanquidity (1978) 460 Points, 3 votes
215 Albert Ayler - Love Cry (1967) 461 Points, 6 votes
214 Antonio Carlos Jobim - Stone Flower (1970) 465 Points, 3 votes
213 Nina Simone - At Town Hall (1959) 470 Points, 4 votes
212 Bobbi Humphrey - Blacks and Blues (1974) 473 Points, 6 Votes
211 Evan Parker, Derek Bailey, Han Bennink - Topography of the Lungs (1970) 474 Points, 3 Votes
210 John Coltrane/ Don Cherry - The Avant Garde (1960) 476 Points, 5 votes
209 Jimmy Smith - Root Down (1972) 477 Points, 4 votes
208 Albert Ayler - New grass (1969) 478 Points, 4 votes
207 Pharoah Sanders - Izipho Zam (1969) 478 Points, 5 Votes
206 Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane (1957) 479 Points, 3 votes
205 Dizzy Gillespie - At Newport (1957) 501 Points, 4 votes
204 Wayne Shorter - The Allseeing Eye (1965) 501 Points, 6 votes
203 Alice Coltrane - Eternity (1976) 502 Points, 4 votes
202 Cecil Taylor - Nefertiti (1962) 505 Points, 4 votes
201 Jon Hassell/Brian Eno - Fourth World Vol. 1: Possible Musics (1990) 507 Points, 5 Votes

200 John Coltrane - Ballads (1962) 510 Points, 5 Votes
199 Sarah Vaughan - Sarah Vaughan ( "Sarah Vaughan with Clifford Brown") (1954) 512 Points,4 Votes
198 Sonny Rollins - The Cutting Edge (1974) 512 Points, 6 Votes
197 Jimmy Smith - The Sermon (1958) 513 points, 4 Votes
196 John Coltrane - Coltrane Plays The Blues (1962) 513 Points 5 votes
195 Art Pepper - Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section (1957) 515 Points, 5 votes
194 Freddie Hubbard - Hub-Tones (1962) 519 Points, 5 votes
193 Eddie Henderson - Sunburst (1975) 519 Points, 7 votes
192 Freddie Hubbard - Ready For Freddie (1961) 521 Points, 4 Votes
191 Don Wilkerson - Elder Don (1962) 523 points, 5 votes
190 Blue Mitchell - The Thing To Do (1964) 525 Points, 5 votes
TIE
188 John Coltrane - Traneing In (1958) 526 Points, 4 votes
188 John Coltrane - Lush Life (1958) 526 Points, 4 votes
187 Lou Donaldson - Blues Walk (1958) 528 points, 3 votes
186 Andrew Hill - Compulsion (1965) 529 Points, 6 votes
185 Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers - A Night In Tunisia (1957) 530 Points, 5 votes
184 Archie Shepp - On This Night (1966) 530 Points, 6 votes
183 Jackie McLean - New And Old Gospel (1967) 534 Points, 6 votes
TIE
181 Alice Coltrane - World Galaxy (1972) 535 Points, 5 votes
181 Albert Ayler - Bells (1965) 535 Points, 5 votes
180 Jackie McLean - Let Freedom Ring (1962) 537 Points, 7 votes
179 Miles Davis - My Funny Valentine (1965) 539 Points, 5 votes
178 Wayne Shorter - Super Nova (1969) 540 Points, 5 votes
177 Tony Williams - Lifetime (1964) 542 Points, 7 votes
176 Archie Shepp - Attica Blues (1972) 545 Points, 6 votes
175 Curtis Fuller - the opener (1957) 548 Points, 4 votes, One #1 vote
174 Cannonball Adderley - Somethin' Else (1958) 548 Points, 5 votes
173 Donald Byrd - places and spaces (1975) 550 Points, 5 votes
172 Charles Mingus - The Clown (1957) 550 Points, 7 votes
TIE
170 Count Basie - The Atomic Mr Basie (1957) 553 Points, 5 votes
170 Miles Davis - Seven Steps To Heaven (1963) 553 Points, 5 votes
169 Sun Ra - Atlantis (1967) 554 Points, 7 votes
168 Noah Howard - The Black Ark 558 6 votes
167 Lee Morgan - Live At The Lighthouse (1970) 561 Points, 4 votes
166 Pharoah Sanders - Journey to the One 561 Points, 5 votes
165 Kenny Burrell - Midnight Blue (1963) 563 Points 5 votes
164 Miles Davis - Walkin' (1954) 563 Points 6 votes
163 Grant Green - Solid (1964) 564 Points, 6 votes
162 Andrew Hill - Judgment! (1964) 578 Points, 5 votes
161 Eric Dolphy - Out There (1960) 580 Points, 6 votes
160 Herbie Mann - Memphis underground (1969) 586 Points, 5 votes
Tie
158 Dorothy Ashby - Afro Harping (1968) 592 Points, 6 votes
158 Yusef Lateef - Eastern Sounds (1961) 592 Points, 6 votes
157 Miles Davis - Dark Magus (1974) 595 Points, 6 votes
156 Cannonball Adderley - Mercy Mercy Mercy! (1966) 597 Points, 4 votes One #1
155 Miles Davis - Pangaea (1975) 598 Points, 6 votes
154 Mahavishnu Orchestra - The Inner Mounting Flame (1971) 600 points, 7 votes
153 Hank Mobley - Workout (1961) 604 Points, 6 votes
152 stan getz and joao gilberto - getz/gilberto (1964) 607 Points, 5 votes
151 Charlie Parker - Jazz at Massey Hall (1953) 612 Points, 7 votes

TIE
149 Billy Cobham - Spectrum (1973 618 Points, 6 votes
149 Thelonious Monk - A Genius Of Modern Music (1947?) 618 points, 6 votes
148 j.j. johnson - proof positive (1964) 619 Points, 7 votes
147 Miles Davis - Workin' (1959) 620 Points, 7 votes
TIE
145 Art Blakey - Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk (1958) 621 Points, 5 votes
145 Herbie Hancock - Mr. Hands (1980) 621 Points, 5 votes
144 Grant Green - Matador (1964) 624 Points, 6 votes
143 Freddie Hubbard - Sing Me A Song of Songmy (1971) 625 Points, 6 votes
142 Joe Henderson - In 'N Out (1964) 629 Points, 6 votes
141 Don Cherry - Brown Rice (1975) 633 Points, 6 votes
140 Charles Mingus - New Tijuana Moods (1957) 635 points, 5
139 Herbie Hancock - Man-child 635 Points, 7 votes
138 Pharoah Sanders - Jewels of Thought (1969) 637 Points, 6 votes
137 Big John Patton - Let 'Em Roll (1965) 646 Points, 7 votes
136 Sonny Rollins - Way Out West (1957) 656 Points, 6 votes
135 Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds Of Vol 2 (1966) 659 Points, 8 votes
134 Grant Green - Live At The Lighthouse (1972) 662 Points, 7 votes
133 Miles Davis - Sorcerer (1967) 667 Points, 6 votes
132 Theolonious Monk Quartet and John Coltrane - At Carnegie Hall (1957) 673 Points
131 Freddie Hubbard - Red Clay (1970) 674 Points, 8 votes
130 Vince Guaraldi Trio - A Charlie Brown Christmas (1965) 684 (points) 7 votes
129 John Coltrane - Kulu Se Mama (1965) 687 Points, 7 votes
128 Bobby Hutcherson - Components (1965) 693 Points, 6 votes
127 Thelonious Monk - Monk's Music (1957) 694 Points 8 votes
126 Archie Shepp - Mama Too Tight 695 Points, 7 votes
125 Miles Davis - Filles de Kilimanjaro (1968) 698 Points, 8 votes
124 Miles Davis - Porgy And Bess (1958) 702 Points, 6 votes
123 Miles Davis - Relaxin' with the Miles Davis Quintet (1957) 703 Points, 9 votes
122 Archie Shepp - The Magic of Ju-Ju (1967) 714 Points 8 votes
121 Big John Patton - Along Came John (1963) 718 Points, 7 votes
120 Sun Ra - Nothing Is (1966) 723 Points, 7 votes
119 Sonny Clark - Leapin' And Lopin' (1961) 728 Points, 7 votes
118 Miles Davis - Milestones (1958) 731 Points, 8 votes
117 Kenny Dorham - Matador (1962) 737 Points, 7 votes
TIE
115 Charles Mingus - Oh Yeah (1962) 739 points, 6 votes
115 Bobby Hutcherson - Stick Up (1966) 739 Points 6 votes
114 John Coltrane - First Meditations (1965) 747 7 votes
113 Miles Davis - Miles Ahead (1957) 751 Points, 9 votes
112 Wayne Shorter - Schizophrenia (1967) 760 Points, 7 votes
111 Jackie McLean - One Step Beyond (1963) 761 Points, 8 votes
110 Lou Donaldson - Good Gracious (1963) 764 Points, 7 Votes
109 McCoy Tyner - Expansions (1968) 771 Points, 7 votes
108 Miles Davis - Miles in The Sky (1968) 778 Points 7 Votes
107 Donald Byrd - Blackbyrd (1973) 785 Points, 8 votes
106 Bill Evans - Waltz for Debby (1961) 796 Points, 7 votes
105 Sun Ra - Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy (1963) 801 Points 8 votes
104 Don Cherry - Mu - Parts 1 & 2 (1969) 803 Points, 9 votes
103 Albert Ayler - Live in Greenwich Village (1967) 807 Points, 6 votes, One #1
102 Andrew Hill - Black Fire (1963) 812 Points 8 votes
101 Bobby Hutcherson - Dialogue (1965) 818 Points, 8 votes

100 Art Ensemble Of Chicago - les stances a sophie (1970) 828 Points, 9 votes
99 Miles Davis - E.S.P. (1965) 835 Points, 9 votes
98 Art Ensemble Of Chicago - A Jackson in Your House (1969) 846 , 8 votes
97 Grant Green - Idle Moments (1965) 846 Points 9 votes
96 Bill Evans - Sunday at the Village Vanguard (1961) 849 Points, 8 votes
95 John Coltrane - Sun Ship 859 Points, 9 votes
94 Duke Ellington - Ellington at Newport (1956) 863 Points, 7 votes
93 Sonny Sharrock - Ask The Ages (1991) 872 Points, 7 votes
92 Sonny Rollins - Tenor Madness (1956) 880 Points, 8 votes
91 Herbie Hancock - Empyrean Isles (1964) 890 Points, 11 votes
90 Miles Davis - Birth Of The Cool (recorded 1949-50) 898 Points, 9 votes
89 Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is The Question! (1959) 904 10 votes
88 Miles Davis - Nefertiti (1968) 912 Points, 8 votes
87 John Coltrane - Crescent (1964) 920 Points, 8 votes
86 Freddie Hubbard - Open Sesame (1960) 929 Points,9 votes
85 Miles Davis - Bags' Groove (1957) 930 Points 8 votes
84 Pharoah Sanders - Tauhid (1966) 932 Points, 10 votes
83 Sun Ra - Angels & Demons At Play (1960) 940 Points, 10 votes
82 John Coltrane - Stellar Regions (1967) 942 Points, 9 votes One #1
81 Thelonious Monk - Monk's Dream (1962) 949 Points, 10 votes
80 Miles Davis - Miles Smiles (1967) 951 Points, 9 votes
79 Alice Coltrane - Universal Consciousness (1971) 964 Points, 7 votes, TWO #1's
78 John Coltrane - Coltrane (Impulse) (1962) 965 Points 10 votes
77 Miles Davis - Cookin' With The Miles Davis Quintet (1957) 966 Points, 10 votes
76 David Holland Quartet - Conference of the Birds (1972) 974 Points, 8 votes
75 Herbie Hancock - Takin' Off (1962) 976 Points, 8 votes
74 Anthony Braxton - for alto (1968) 986 Points, 8 votes
73 Sonny Sharrock - Black Woman (1969) 997 points, 10 votes
72 Archie Shepp - The Way Ahead (1969) 1003 Points, 9 votes
71 Pharoah Sanders - Thembi (1971) 1007 Points, 9 votes
70 Pharoah Sanders - Black Unity (1971) 1007 Points, 11 votes
69 Oliver Nelson - The Blues and the Abstract Truth (1961) 1035 Points, 9 votes
68 Lonnie Liston Smith and the Cosmic Echoes - Astral Traveling (1973) 1048 Points, 11 votes
67 Hank Mobley - Roll Call (1960) 1049 (Points) 10 votes, ONE #1
66 John Coltrane - Meditations (1965) 1069 Points, 9 votes, ONE #1
65 Cecil Taylor - Conquistador (1966) 1071 Points, 10 votes, ONE # 1
64 Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century (1960) 1083 points, 10 votes
63 Charlie Haden - Liberation Music Orchestra(1969) 1091 Points, 10 votes
62 Duke Ellington feat (Charlie Mingus & Max Roach) - Money Jungle (1962) 1095 Points, 10 votes
61 Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds Of Vol 1 (1965) 1096 Points, 10 votes
60 Hank Mobley - Straight No Filter (1966) 1099 Points, 10 votes
59 Duke Ellington - Far East Suite (1967) 1125 Points, 9 votes
58 Donald Byrd - off to the races (1958) 1132 Points, 11 votes
57 Charles Mingus - Let My Children Hear Music (1972) 1135 Points, 10 votes
56 Art Blakey & the Jazz Messengers - Moanin' (1958) 1151 Points, 10 votes
55 Wayne Shorter - JuJu (1964) 1194 Points, 12 votes
54 Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage (1965) 1200 Points, 12 votes
53 Thelonious Monk - Straight No Chaser (1967) 1201 Points, 12 votes
52 Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil (1964) 1207 Points, 11 votes
51 Lonnie Liston Smith - Expansions (1974) 1216 Points, 10 votes
50 John Coltrane - Olé Coltrane (1961) 1225 Points, 11 votes

49 Horace Silver - Song for My Father (1964) 1228 Points, 12 votes
48 Miles Davis - Steamin' with the Miles Davis Quintet ( 1961) 1251 Points, 10 votes
47 John Coltrane - Africa/Brass (1961) 1262 Points, 13 votes
46 Ornette Coleman - This Is Our Music (1961) 1343 Points, 12 votes
45 Miles Davis - Get Up With It (1974) 1350 Points, 12 votes
44 Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out (1959) 1378 Points, 9 votes
43 Miles Davis - Agharta (1975) 1393 Points, 12 votes
42 Alice Coltrane - Ptah The El Daoud (1970) 1447 Points, 13 votes
41 John Coltrane - interstellar Space (1967) 1461 Points, 15 votes
40 Donald Byrd - A New Perspective (1963) 1481 Points, 12 votes
39 Miles Davis - Sketches Of Spain (1960) 1493 Points, 12 votes
38 Ornette Coleman - Free Jazz (1960) 1520 Points, 13 votes
37 Charles Mingus - Pithecanthropus Erectus (1956) 1528 Points, 12 votes
36 Sonny Rollins - Saxophone Colossus (1956) 1538 Points, 13 votes, One #1
35 Miles Davis - A Tribute To Jack Johnson (1970) 1616 Points, 14 votes
34 Andrew Hill - Point of Departure (1964) 1626 Points, 14 votes
33 Charles Mingus - Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus (1963) 1658 Points, 15 votes
32 Peter Brötzmann - Machine Gun (1968) 1714 Points, 12 votes, One #1
31 Lee Morgan - Search For The New Land (1964) 1836 Points, 12 votes
30 Archie Shepp - Fire Music (1965) 1896 Points, 13 votes, one #1
29 Herbie Hancock - Crossings (1971) 1898 Points, 14 votes One #1
28 Joe Henderson - Page One (1963) 1902 Points, 12 votes
27 Miles Davis - On the Corner (1972) 1957 Points, 14 votes, One #1
26 Sun Ra - Space is The Place (Impulse) 1982 Points, 17 votes
25 Cecil Taylor - Unit Structures (1966) 1983 Points 15 votes
24 Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder (1963) 2096 Points, 16 votes
23 Jackie McLean - Destination Out (1963) 2118 Points, 14 votes
22 Miles Davis - Round About Midnight (1956) 2165 Points, 15 votes
21 Thelonious Monk - Brilliant Corners (1957) 2220 Points, 15 votes
20 Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity (1964) 2239 Points 17 votes

19 Alice Coltrane - Journey In Satchidananda (1971) 2466 Points, 17 votes, One #1
18 Miles Davis - Bitches Brew (1970) 2554 Points, 17 votes TWO #1's
17 Sonny Clark - Cool Struttin' (1958) 2602 Points, 17 votes, One #1
16 John Coltrane - My Favourite Things (1961) 2651 Points, 21 votes
15 John Coltrane - A Love Supreme (1964) 2701 Points, 20 votes
14 Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um (1959) 2708 Points, 22 votes
13 John Coltrane - Blue Train (1957) 2710 Points, 20 votes
12 Herbie Hancock - Head Hunters (1973) 2716 Points, 20 votes
11 Hank Mobley - Soul Station (1960) 2737 Points, 17 votes, One #1

But you're not just denigrating these records for their spiritual hat-wearing. You're also saying that they shouldn't be here, or they should only be allowed token entries.

And yes, I'm familiar with enough of the 'spiritual hat' records to say that they are more interesting than the Modern Jazz Quartet, although I like the latter.

Granny Dainger, he wasn't merely "pointing it out," he was being condescending "LOL oh you ridiculous hipster plebes" about it.

While failing to explain why his alternatives were somehow more valid.

at this point I kind of hope deej has a jaymc-style spreadsheet of in-depth sociological statistical data regarding music consumption and critical consensus for every genre, cuz the degree of certainty with which he makes vast generalizations about various canons/listening audiences/record collector scum would suggest that he does

xp

and in the 250 he has far more than his stature in the jazz world

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011

contra shakey i think this is true, but railing against stuff that got six votes is eh

anyway my only point was that calling sanders alice coltrane and sun ra outsider jazz is a misrepresentation imo

pharoah and alice not so much, but Sun Ra...? come on now

his whole schtick was being an outsider! that's how he saw himself

well the term was being used to critique the whole poll so...

BUT PHAROAH AND ALICE WORE HATS

its perhaps an exaggeration but the gist of it is otm -- theres a specific bias towards a specific kind of jazz ... yall can talk about how much better jazz harpists are than mjq it doesnt make it fact

interesting that (along with ahmad jamal) there's no modern jazz quartet here, either (right?). from what i understand, they were one of the biggest acts of the time, but they're stature has gone down considerably. i suppose it's arguable that they were too straight ahead, not iconoclastic enough, no spiritual hats (though they did cover ornette!). great records however.

― tylerw, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (5 minutes ago) Permalink

And the thing is John Lewis did lots of cool 'out' experimentation mixing jazz and 20th century classical music. MJQ are certainly on the easier listening end but there are hints of that in their music too. I kind of wish I nominated some "third stream" stuff like John Lewis or George Russell -- it's really fucking cool stuff.

yeah he was being condescending at first, but he's backtracked a lil and at this point seems to be willing to accept just an acknowledgment that this list skews towards spiritual hat

This automagically makes their music: less worthy than "straight jazz."

Also, harps clearly aren't musical instruments.

not even really sure what "outsider jazz" would refer to -- like you said, sun ra played w/ fletcher henderson. alice coltrane learned from bud powell. pharoah sanders -- well, he came from an r&b background right? maybe that's outsider.

can we have a spiritual hat subtotal, what are the real proportions here

While failing to explain why his alternatives were somehow more valid.

― The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Friday, September 2, 2011 1:56 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

its a critique observing how when a certain type dominates, other things are excluded. i didnt even try to claim which ones are 'more correct,' just observing the biases inherent in the results. observing an imbalance or preference in the voting pool doesnt mean that i think my favs are somehow more 'valid'

im sorry im makin you think about why you like stuff, though.

not even really sure what "outsider jazz" would refer to -- like you said, sun ra played w/ fletcher henderson. alice coltrane learned from bud powell. pharoah sanders -- well, he came from an r&b background right? maybe that's outsider.

― tylerw, Friday, September 2, 2011 2:00 PM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

how about, stuff that was going against the grain of jazz' narrative?

stuff that was unusual, or resisted the jazz mainstream?

im simply pointing out that contra emil.y that just because it did this doesnt make it superior

You love the attention, don't you? Sometimes I wonder about the penis size/trolling correlation.

& yeah, hurting, the third stream stuff seems kind of forgotten to a certain extent -- too arty, too self-conscious seeming? i don't know. i do like a lot of the john lewis records i've heard w/ or w/o MJQ.

going against the grain of jazz' narrative
i dunno, by the time the late 60s rolled around, any "jazz narrative" had kinda gone out the window.

You love the attention, don't you? Sometimes I wonder about the penis size/trolling correlation.

― The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Friday, September 2, 2011 2:02 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol ur the one making all the personal remarks. who's trolling here exactly

My take on Alice Coltrane: it's nice stuff but how many records of it do you need? Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

I think Alice is better than John.

deej is pretty otm now. this list is in a way saying straight jazz or CTI-style smooth jazz isn't as remarkable as space hat weirdo jazz, and people are pretending that...i won't even call it a bias...preference doesn't exist.

& yeah, hurting, the third stream stuff seems kind of forgotten to a certain extent -- too arty, too self-conscious seeming? i don't know. i do like a lot of the john lewis records i've heard w/ or w/o MJQ.

― tylerw, Friday, September 2, 2011 3:02 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Again, I think partly a timing thing. John Lewis was experimenting with modern classical at a time when the dominant "experimental" thrust in jazz was to get away from European idioms and toward more "pure" African/African American idioms. Obivously there's a lot of politics wrapped up in this too. Even hard bop was partly about getting away from standards, moving toward a canon of compositions by black jazz musicians.

i feel like more art blakey would be in my personal mindgarden list too

going against the grain of jazz' narrative
i dunno, by the time the late 60s rolled around, any "jazz narrative" had kinda gone out the window.

^^^^

there are pretty clear dominant trends in jazz from Louis Armstrong up through the early 60s - but after that it burst really wide. free jazz, soul jazz, fusion, etc. people sometimes privelege boundary-expanding periods like this, they're diversity and sense of experimentation is often a joy to behold. but by the late 60s I dunno if you could really say Alice or Pharoah or Herbie were going against the grain per se, they were very much a part of movements going on around them. Ra a little less so because he was such a contrarian and was "ahead of his time" in various ways, and never hewed strictly to prevailing norms (altho his nods to funk and disco in the 70s are hilarious and awesome)

theres some good hard bop here but not as much as you'd expect. how much jimmy smith made it too?

There's a lot to be said about the leanings of this list but, personally, there's not a single album I dislike on here so far (having heard ~90% of it.) I've never seen a top 100 or even top 50 list where that's the case.

Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

not really feeling you on this, all 3 have insanely diverse catalogs.