generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

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that's mostly w/r/t for-profit schools, which isn't what this thread is really about (tho it is a pretty important subject)

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

"no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited"

are we to accept this wholly as a truth!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

the new accreditation process will apply to all schools that wish to be accredited by the HLC (mine is not for profit)

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'll belive it when I see it - mind the menace of such schools!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw philosophy majors rank in the top three nationally on the LSAT, GMAT and GRE pretty much yearly; our only competition is physics & math iirc

lool

i'm interested in your 'just go to a state school argument' because how much does that then start closing doors to possible future careers? or at least certain career paths? i mean the % of ppl who are ever going to sit on the supreme court or be an svp of an investment bank or write for the simpsons or w/e is negligible already but the idea that anyone who cant afford/doesnt want to risk huge debt to pay for a private school shldn't even dream of it is p dispiriting

i mean 'private colleges are really expensive so don't go to them' is reasonable advice except: public schools are getting more expensive, only have so many spaces and is at odds w/ the idea that at least certain private schools are the 'only way' to make it certain professions. also at my large public university the % of tenured professors who did not attend an elite private college is hanging right around 15% w/ most of the coming from oxbridge/my own school. so, yknow...

Lamp, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real

the lengths to which some schools will go to conceal their poor job placement numbers/career services? that i can't really say. but reporting it is a part of institutional assessment, and everyone has to do it.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

i still dont understand this 'private schools are too expensive' thing -- it was much MORE affordable for me to go to a private liberal arts school than a public one

D-40, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

"you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real"

these things are always a red herring

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's also a gap growing w/r/t private schools in that the best schools can all pretty much give full-rides to the poor/middle class kids they admit. I think going to a no-name local private school is prob the worst deal you can get right now tho. xp

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

well that's if you go to a good private liberal arts school with a generous financial need policy xp to deej

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

a lot of third, fourth tier 'private liberal arts' colleges out there that will provide you w/ the same experience but for which you will probably have to finance your entire experience with loan money if you can't pay it upfront

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah deej is point in case that this can really depend on someone's situation, which makes it even harder to talk about. but *overall* private schools are considerably more expensive.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha basically what iatee said

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Creating the Climate for Continuous Learning is a distinct Strategy Forum intended specifically for institutions already experienced with AQIP. This Strategy Forum requires an institution to have submitted a Systems Portfolio to AQIP, undergone a Systems Appraisal, and received and analyzed its Systems Appraisal Feedback Report. Registration is open."

listen to this - lifted RIGHT OFF THEIR SITE

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

did you c/p that randomly or what

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

:(

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I had a friend in HS who went to Duke of all places because with financial aid it was cheaper than UVA. The financial aid budget is the biggest fiscal concern at my college; our operating budget was like 85% tuition and fees every year (compared to places that have much larger endowments and draw on them for operating budget every year). Basically the full-pay students fund financial aid every year for the ones getting an average like 50% discount on the sticker price.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Principles of Good Practice in Adult Degree Completion Programs
In order to facilitate the evaluation of adult degree completion programs in member institutions, the Board of Trustees has adopted a set of kick-ass principles developed by a special task force, as a framework for program implementation. These principles also are used by team members in evaluating patterns of evidence during accreditation reviews."

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha

it's like a black hole of jargon over there

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

is this from univ. of utility data?

Philip Nunez, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

No College Student Left Behind is just around the corner, once you pass the nationally applied gen ed integrated learning objectives that seem imminent :-/

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

(i sincerely hope i'm wrong about that btw)

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

"These best practices have been developed by the regional accrediting commissions in response to the emergence of technologically mediated instruction offered at a distance as an important component of higher education. CAn I get a what what!? Expressing in detail what currently constitutes best practice in distance education, specifically electronically offered degree and certificate programs, shit is whack, they seek to address concerns that regional accreditation standards are not relevant to the new distributed learning environments, especially when those environments are experienced by offcampus students."

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

No College Student Left Behind is just around the corner, once you pass the nationally applied gen ed integrated learning objectives that seem imminent :-/

I think a better situation would be a national credentialing system - if you graduate w/ an BA (or if you don't) you should have to take and pass a competitive national test for your field. some sort of post-college (or college alternative) skills and intelligence measure. having an alternate way to prove yourself would eventually take some pressure of people going to college just for the sake of going to college.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

tho fwiw self-taught lawyers still can't practice if the pass the bar etc.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

ah yes, but who will design that test
that is the terrifying question (for me, at least)

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

its nicer to have to pass a test than pass a workload

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

you would say that

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

hope self-taught doctors are barred too

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

take some pressure off* xp

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

"The Commission invites participation in of one seven Regional Forums on Commission Initiatives. Think you can bring it? These forums provide the opportunity to hear about proposed changes in the Criteria for Accreditation and the development and implementation of the new Open Pathway model for continued accreditation, and to provide comments, ask questions, and raise issues.Also booty blast session and 1$ drafts"

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

if a self-taught doctor can pass the same test as one who had to spend 200k to learn that stuff, not sure what the problem would be. obv doctors require hospital and lab experience and the institutions for this alternative don't exist. but they could.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's also a gap growing w/r/t private schools in that the best schools can all pretty much give full-rides to the poor/middle class kids they admit. I think going to a no-name local private school is prob the worst deal you can get right now tho. xp

― iatee, Friday, September 2, 2011 11:49 AM (17 minutes ago)

yeah, this wasn't quite the case 20 years ago, but the disparity was pretty large, in that my first choice college, while it may have given me a pre-eminent proto-hipster education, was a 2nd/3rd tier liberal arts college that waitlisted me for financial aid, and my second choice college gave me 1/2 a free ride, and that's how i ended up at an ivy.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think a better situation would be a national credentialing system - if you graduate w/ an BA (or if you don't) you should have to take and pass a competitive national test for your field. some sort of post-college (or college alternative) skills and intelligence measure. this isn't even well-implemented for high schools yet, i think colleges doing something like this is years/decades off. not to mention that a lot of fields can't be measured using a 'competitive national test' b/c education doesn't work like that.

having an alternate way to prove yourself would eventually take some pressure of people going to college just for the sake of going to college. - yes, absolutely.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

sarahel was your first choice sarahelawrence

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

(sorry I actually don't want to know the answer to that)

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - it was Reed College in Portlandia

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw I didn't know quite what I wanted to do and was mystified by all the college application stuff so while my peers had parents who were helping them around on it or looking at schools I felt oddly guilty -- I didn't know what I wanted to do, and that would help me pick a school, so why am I going to spend money and time applying to all these schools?

It didn't take me too long to figure out I was wrong once I was in college, but then I was all mopey and just tried to explain this to my parents so it'd count in for my sister, but then she ended up going to the state university, too, since she had reasons to stay close at the time and they gave her a full ride scholarship

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

kinda lol at the School of the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston for such a huge tutiotn and there are no grades just at the end of the semester "pass or fail" based on them looking at your stuff - why pay for that

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

It's a decent article, though who the fuck thought that the example "girl gets swept into a fairly popular American rock band" was somehow
even remotely appropriate? Maybe a reunited LCD Soundsystem will save me from my temp job?

I'm certainly jaded after college and I find the most terrible thing about it is my current career path. I was able to get a student
employment job working medical admin and have since been bouncing from temp admin job to temp admin job for the past three years.
I can't complain about being gainfully employed, but the fact that I'm 26 with an MA and was only able to afford to turn my hot water on a month ago
is certainly depressing. Lately I've taken to working on my writing as a full time job. Though I'm reaching mixed success with that, it at least makes me feel like I'm not wasting the years I put into school.

Ryan, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

One though I keep having is that despite my ambivalence about having children (I don't believe I should reproduce personally, and adoption is a lot more of an ordeal than signing up for free baby delivery), I will be saving for their hypothetical college educations until I am quite positive that they are never going to manifest themselves in my life. Or my sister's life.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

(xp to Latham) I dunno, it kind of makes sense to me? Why should you be graded on your output as a Masters' candidate artist? You either do the work or you don't, and the feedback is valuable but the grade is irrelevent.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

well then I will pass or fail you and your work for 30$ - don't worry - I'm awesome

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm interested in your 'just go to a state school argument' because how much does that then start closing doors to possible future careers? or at least certain career paths? i mean the % of ppl who are ever going to sit on the supreme court or be an svp of an investment bank or write for the simpsons or w/e is negligible already but the idea that anyone who cant afford/doesnt want to risk huge debt to pay for a private school shldn't even dream of it is p dispiriting

There's another thread about this somewhere - I remember posting a study from five or six years ago that looked at the socioeconomic class of students who attend the top-tier colleges (public and private) - 75% were drawn from the top-quarter of the socioeconomic scale, 3% from the bottom quarter.

Given the representation of those institutions in the arts, upper echelons of the business world, politics, etc., it's essentially a self-perpetuating oligarchy.

It's one reason I didn't finish my fine arts degree from a run of the mill public 'national research university' (UT-Arlington, god knows how national it actually is) - what the fuck does that piece of paper do for me? Am I really competitive getting into a good MFA program vs someone with lesser work from SVA/an Ivy/etc.?

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

in the art world that presumably these students are preparing for, it really is often just an issue of pass/fail

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

is there an art world anymore?

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

what is art?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

last year, i participated in a group discussion of art school MFA students and recent grads about a "just arts economy." it was very frustrating and i felt like an asshole.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:34 (3 years ago) Permalink


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