generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

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fwiw philosophy majors rank in the top three nationally on the LSAT, GMAT and GRE pretty much yearly; our only competition is physics & math iirc

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp lol

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Got turned down for a job I had two interviews for today. FUCK THIS SHIT.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

xps to Euler: see I don't like the idea of denigrating "the liberal arts" as a thing, I legitimately believe that the liberal arts (including liberal study of the sciences) are the foundation of a democratic society; this is why high school is at least in part a weird mini liberal arts education. College as a job-training-and-credentialing exercise is just going to become a worse and worse value proposition (though it honestly isn't now, as college grads are still outperforming non-college-grads in the job market, modulo debt I guess), especially because the academy moves so slowly that by the time it has figured out how to prepare students for the economy of 2011 it'll be 2038.

a hoy hoy: YEAH NO KIDDIN

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is why high school is at least in part a weird mini liberal arts education it's becoming less of this all the time

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I would like to see more discussion of the value of a liberal arts education itt. think a lot of ppl (though not all) who post to ILX prob have a degree in the liberal arts and went to liberal arts colleges?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

did anybody actually have 'shop class' in high school?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

my hs had it, I didn't take it

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^we did and I managed to studiously avoid all of them

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

we also had an auto-repair type class, I think

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

the stuff I learned in my hs journalism class - particularly how to write, use a computer, and lay things out - came in much handier professionally than anything I learned in college, really. but liberal arts degrees/colleges are not really about learning a specific subject matter imho, they're about training your mind to think critically and work in different contexts.

I would definitely be making more money in the same industry I'm in now if I'd gotten an engineering degree, but I always hated math.

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah 'critical thinking' is the rote response to people who question the value of a liberal arts education

I'm still trying to think through the true value of the ability to 'think critically' in the job market

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

dayo it was called the vocational wing in my hs

also folks, this is my line of work and i have a lot of relevant things to say, but i would really rather not discuss it publicly for a variety of reasons

xp - critical thinking is REALLY IMPORTANT esp if you don't have very good critical thinking skills

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

did anybody actually have 'shop class' in high school?

Was v sad when I had to give up woodshop b/c there was no room for it in the college-prep curriculum. It was down to shop or band, and marching band won.

Just think, I could have grown up to be a stoner!

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

I tend to take Dewey's line about the value of a liberal-arts-education in creating & nourishing a populace able to handle democracy

+ DFW's take in his Kenyon graduation address

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh I totally agree that critical thinking is implicitly and in and of itself a valuable skill, LL - but that's not how all employers see it

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

ps - i had shop class in middle school

it's an important skill to have as a human being, not as an employee

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think that the american liberal arts education actually contributes substantial economic value to this country - overall we had a much more adaptable job market in the late 20th century than most of the world. more engineers would be good too, but an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?) most contemporary jobs don't require specific training and in better economic times can be learned on-the-job.

said it in the other thread but the bigger problems are:
a. jobs! (I know underemployed engineers from good schools!)
b. cost

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

i do not work at a liberal arts school btw

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

liberal arts school can't really be blamed for 0 net job growth this month

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

last month, rather

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

schools

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

ime the critical thinking tends to be "i wish i hadn't done a useless humanities degree"

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

The public university at which I work has increased tuition and enrollment geometrically in the last two years to compensate for evaporating state funding, with no commensurate strengthening of infrastructure.

The quality of students haven't changed much except I'm seeing more examples of mediocrities: girls getting psych degrees as a time killer before marriage because their parents press on them the importance of a college education, guys getting business degrees because, well, they want to start their own franchises, and journalism majors who don't realize how useless that degree is and always was.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

true everywhere

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?)

Would it be like this?

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

working nights did not come in handy today. someone called me about an hour into my sleep (10? 11am?) and I gave off the just the most generic dozed pitch, can't even remember what company they were calling from.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol @ 50% engineer economy; welcome to China :(

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

― Euler, Friday, September 2, 2011 1:22 PM

ultimately we're being fucked by people in dc and wall street, lots of them went to ivies, all of them are rich, it's not completely hors-sujet

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

all we needs are farmers and abstract artists

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

problem with america is not enough grant woods

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

"school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side"

i really view this as a positive when applied to the evil ambitions of... a lot of people frankly. what other civilizing institutions do we have other than compulsory education? I agree with Thiel in the sense that a lot of motivated people would be personally, selfishly better off not pursuing advanced degrees and doing startups straight from high school, but I disagree that it's a net positive for society.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

it seems weird that so mnay people spend so much money on rent/mortgage - seems like just money going to rich banker types instead of food, healthfcare etc

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

food and health care $ is also mostly going to evil rich people

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nunez - that was just my individual experience - I did however enjoy doodling in the margins of notebooks and dyadreamin

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

we all dreamed of dyao in school

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

really Mr Spock, cant we have a spciaety where people dont have to pay fuckin mortgages!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

otm xp

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw just so you guys know -- the hammer is coming down on higher ed w/r/t assessment and accountability for their claims. the HLC has issued a whole new system of criteria for accreditation that is designed to force institutions to account for how their time and money is being spent.

fyi

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

that's mostly w/r/t for-profit schools, which isn't what this thread is really about (tho it is a pretty important subject)

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

"no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited"

are we to accept this wholly as a truth!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

the new accreditation process will apply to all schools that wish to be accredited by the HLC (mine is not for profit)

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'll belive it when I see it - mind the menace of such schools!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw philosophy majors rank in the top three nationally on the LSAT, GMAT and GRE pretty much yearly; our only competition is physics & math iirc

lool

i'm interested in your 'just go to a state school argument' because how much does that then start closing doors to possible future careers? or at least certain career paths? i mean the % of ppl who are ever going to sit on the supreme court or be an svp of an investment bank or write for the simpsons or w/e is negligible already but the idea that anyone who cant afford/doesnt want to risk huge debt to pay for a private school shldn't even dream of it is p dispiriting

i mean 'private colleges are really expensive so don't go to them' is reasonable advice except: public schools are getting more expensive, only have so many spaces and is at odds w/ the idea that at least certain private schools are the 'only way' to make it certain professions. also at my large public university the % of tenured professors who did not attend an elite private college is hanging right around 15% w/ most of the coming from oxbridge/my own school. so, yknow...

Lamp, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real

the lengths to which some schools will go to conceal their poor job placement numbers/career services? that i can't really say. but reporting it is a part of institutional assessment, and everyone has to do it.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

i still dont understand this 'private schools are too expensive' thing -- it was much MORE affordable for me to go to a private liberal arts school than a public one

D-40, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

"you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real"

these things are always a red herring

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

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