JAZZ IS LIKE HEROIN TO ME ! ! ! ~~~~ ILM POST-1945 JAZZ ALBUMS POLL - THE RESULTS COUNTDOWN (now counting top 25!)

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those glasses are totally anti jazz

sonderangerbot, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:11 (twelve years ago) link

I didn't say they weren't real jazz worthy of acclaim

D-40, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:11 (twelve years ago) link

"He Loved Him Madly" floors me every single time.

The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:11 (twelve years ago) link

Did they see projects like Bitches Brew or Ascension as extending the tradition or breaking from it completely?

this is an interesting point - it's been a long time since I read any Coltrane bios. Miles didn't give a fuck about genre labels by the time he went electric afaict

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:13 (twelve years ago) link

Who's the vibes player on that, a hoy hoy, Bobby Hutcherson?

― Hipster Shake Boogie (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 1 September 2011 20:10 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yup. <3

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:13 (twelve years ago) link

Money Jungle liner notes btw make mention of Mingus's autobiog and i've never thought about reading up on muh jazz heroes and now kinda wanna go book buying crazy. any recommended reads?

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:14 (twelve years ago) link

Its real jazz worthy of acclaim that also happens to be a cornerstone of the hipster jazz record collector continuum that imo overvalues a certain kind of jazz record ... Saying kob is overrated but a love supreme is coltranes greatest accomplishment is a symptom of this thinking. obv my framing here can be construed as picking a fight or w/e but I think its a fair sitting of the biases that result in so many sun ra, fusion and spiritual hat records making the list

D-40, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:15 (twelve years ago) link

I really like the miles bio "round about midnight" and think its a really slept on read.

D-40, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:16 (twelve years ago) link

any recommended reads?

Yes, Straight Life, by Art Pepper.

Hipster Shake Boogie (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:16 (twelve years ago) link

any recommended reads?

http://cache3.bookdepository.co.uk/assets/images/book/small/9780/3068/9780306808555.jpg

_Rudipherous_, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:17 (twelve years ago) link

If you want to learn about jazz steer clear of the Mingus "autobiography". If, on the other hand, you want to read improbable stories of Mingus having acrobatic sex with every woman he meets, go ahead.

dubplates and monster munch (seandalai), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:17 (twelve years ago) link

the hipster jazz record collector

as opposed to the hipster jazz record musician like the guys who made half our fav. records?

i never said KOB was overrated btw. I just said I like other Miles records better.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:17 (twelve years ago) link

Cheers for the recs. Off to amazon I go (to line up things hoping I get the job I interviewed for this morning and the payrise that goes with.)

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:18 (twelve years ago) link

spiritual hat records making the list

i am starting to love this description.

Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:20 (twelve years ago) link

If you want to learn about jazz steer clear of the Mingus "autobiography". If, on the other hand, you want to read improbable stories of Mingus having acrobatic sex with every woman he meets, go ahead.

this book is hilarious fwiw

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:21 (twelve years ago) link

The mingus autobio is ridic and pulpy but imo a highly entertaining read

D-40, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:21 (twelve years ago) link

xp Me too - once the rollout is done I'm thinking of polling all the hats.

dubplates and monster munch (seandalai), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:21 (twelve years ago) link

Roland Kirk bio "Bright Moments" is really good. Miles' autobio is interesting and (as should be expected) completely self-serving. "Space is the Place" is fantastic.

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:22 (twelve years ago) link

44    Dave Brubeck Quartet - Time Out (1959) 1378 Points, 9 votes
http://zenekucko.ucoz.com/_bl/25/38975176.jpg
http://open.spotify.com/album/6P3jzdPK5VMbzuJ2HcRt9y

Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:22 (twelve years ago) link

"Space is the Place" is fantastic.

The John Szwed book about Miles is also pretty good.

Hipster Shake Boogie (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:23 (twelve years ago) link

xps Dunno - about halfway through Beneath the Underdog I started getting queasy at the weird fantasy stuff like Mingus getting his two lovers into prostitution and them being all "yeah baby!" about it.

dubplates and monster munch (seandalai), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:23 (twelve years ago) link

About the putative jazz vs not-jazz distinction: what did key players such as Miles and Coltrane think at the time? Did they see projects like Bitches Brew or Ascension as extending the tradition or breaking from it completely?

― dubplates and monster munch (seandalai), Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:04 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

My guess or at least hope is that as consumate musicians of the highest order they gave up on trying to figure out whether they fit "jazz" or not and just aimed to make the music they wanted to make. That said I think there's a cool thesis/antithesis/synthesis thing going on, where I can see how someone at the time of Bitches Brew might throw up his hands and say "Ok, this is SO far outside of what I think of as jazz, and brings in so much non-jazz influence that I don't think it's jazz anymore," but meanwhile the very fact of a jazz musician making records like that in the long run kind of pushes the line outward so that eventually what people in later decades consider "jazz" is broader.

Helping 3 (Hurting 2), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:23 (twelve years ago) link

weird fantasy stuff like Mingus getting his two lovers into prostitution and them being all "yeah baby!" about it.

this is just him wanting to be Iceberg Slim or whatever

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:24 (twelve years ago) link

xp haha but that's the thing, D-40, your stance is still arbitrary. You have failed to explain or mention what musical qualities make these "overvalued" records less valuable or worthy than whatever ones you prefer. You're referring to extramusical things - like, y'know, hats (WTF) & how much fans of music made by people with said hats annoy you.

The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:25 (twelve years ago) link

I want a spiritual hat.

The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:25 (twelve years ago) link

glad Time Out didn't make the top 20. I just don't get what makes it such a canon record. Well its in lots of adverts I guess.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:26 (twelve years ago) link

yeah just seems like you're judging a record on the merits of its audience. sure, some of these things have a "hipness" cache that doesn't have anything to do with the music -- "check out Sun Ra man, he was from outer space!" But there's still the music.

tylerw, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:27 (twelve years ago) link

tbf deej is more of an audience critic than a music critic

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:28 (twelve years ago) link

glad Time Out didn't make the top 20

never dug Brubeck either. I get why people like it but it just doesn't do it for me.

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:29 (twelve years ago) link

this is the one i play for people not into brubeck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1X8CvYAK-E
i think i'm more of a paul desmond fan though -- his records with Jim Hall are worth searching out.

tylerw, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:31 (twelve years ago) link

tbf deej is more of an audience critic than a music critic

― I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:28 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

http://moochey.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/336-ice-cube-chris-tucker-damn.gif?w=350&h=263

some dude, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:32 (twelve years ago) link

And now for another fusion album (sans hat) that didn't make the top 20

Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:33 (twelve years ago) link

My guess or at least hope is that as consumate musicians of the highest order they gave up on trying to figure out whether they fit "jazz" or not and just aimed to make the music they wanted to make. That said I think there's a cool thesis/antithesis/synthesis thing going on, where I can see how someone at the time of Bitches Brew might throw up his hands and say "Ok, this is SO far outside of what I think of as jazz, and brings in so much non-jazz influence that I don't think it's jazz anymore," but meanwhile the very fact of a jazz musician making records like that in the long run kind of pushes the line outward so that eventually what people in later decades consider "jazz" is broader.

― Helping 3 (Hurting 2), Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:23 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

Good points. Also, I'm not certain that too many (or any) of the music's innovators consciously approached their work as being part of a genre. Duke always said, "Oh, we stopped using that word ["jazz"] in the 40s"; Miles, when someone said, "You're a jazz musician, aren't you?" replied, "I'm a musician, that's all"; Thelonious Monk, talking to Bob Dylan: "We all play folk music."

shake it, shake it, sugary pee (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:33 (twelve years ago) link

i feel like i've heard other brubeck (solo maybe? its been a while) that i really enjoyed but time out just seems kinda rote compared to what his contemparies were doing.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:34 (twelve years ago) link

that is a dope cover at least, poss. miles's best.

ok i've just noticed a brubeck record called DAVE DIGS DISNEY and have a morbid curiousity. should i?

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:36 (twelve years ago) link

^^even without miles, that'd be classic. what a band. i feel like a lot of the 70s miles stuff is his bands trying to *figure* out what they're doing -- which results in some really exciting music (and some stuff that's a little bit tough to get with). But Agharta/Pangea sound like they know exactly what they're doing, like they're playing everything for maximum effect. really well named records, too, the music sounds like tectonic plates shifting, life starting.

tylerw, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:38 (twelve years ago) link

maybe dave digs disney is good i dunno? i kind of love his version of singin in the rain.

tylerw, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:38 (twelve years ago) link

But there's still the music.

the tuneless, ugly, noodly music is the real draw! (I keed, it's cool y'all dig that stuff, I've never been able to get into it)

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:41 (twelve years ago) link

http://img2.wantitall.co.za/images/ShowImage.aspx?ImageId=Miles-Davis-Agharta-Blu-Spec-CD%7C61IeQ89LYlL.jpg

agharta's japanese cover > that other cover up there

mutant slow drum (BradNelson), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:44 (twelve years ago) link

ha whoa, never seen that before.

tylerw, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:45 (twelve years ago) link

ok this blue cover book is a+ but what i really want to mention is how many make me want to laugh. albums covers should be funnier/funner more often.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:46 (twelve years ago) link

also i definitely don't think that deej is having a jazz vs. not jazz argument; he's just annoyed at the records that are critically enshrined by the rock dudes, which are enshrined for sort of arbitrary reasons also ("spiritual," "sounds like rock sort of") and direct attention away from records that are instrumental in defining the actual sound and feel and culture of jazz (which is also sort of a hard thing to pin down but deej definitely has something in mind)

mutant slow drum (BradNelson), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:46 (twelve years ago) link

42    Alice Coltrane - Ptah The El Daoud (1970) 1447 Points, 13 votes
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2IjE77e29wQ/SQEZCwNvPWI/AAAAAAAAAJ8/SxvinJz6NjQ/s400/61GjcWK%252BPKL__SS500_.jpg
http://open.spotify.com/album/62RMymUs9Cb4rDqYqXfTCf

Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:49 (twelve years ago) link

maybe what puts me off w/ that line of thinking is- i don't think of rock as "spiritual" or "transcendent" or whatever, most of the time, unless it incorporates other genres like jazz or classical strings etc.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:49 (twelve years ago) link

i definitely wasn't conflating the two. still trying to figure out in my head why rock crits got so attracted to the spiritual beat but i have a feeling it has something to do with some sort of racism

mutant slow drum (BradNelson), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:50 (twelve years ago) link

being atypical in the rock world tends to get you more notice than doing what's been done before (or a slight variation of that) extremely awesomely.

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:51 (twelve years ago) link

oh no not the 'r' word!!!

Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:52 (twelve years ago) link

lol bradnelson

agharta isn't jazz though

sonderangerbot, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:53 (twelve years ago) link

being atypical in the rock world tends to get you more notice than doing what's been done before (or a slight variation of that) extremely awesomely.

This can also be a matter of having trouble making more subtle distinctions between works in a relatively unfamiliar genre. It's definitely easier to see the really divergent stuff rather than seeing why someone in a tradition is doing something considered better than others equally grounded in the tradition. (I am inadvertently supporting deej here, I think.)

_Rudipherous_, Thursday, 1 September 2011 19:56 (twelve years ago) link


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