Hip Hop taken to new levels.

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DJ Spooky?

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 17 November 2003 18:39 (twenty years ago) link

oh shit, forgot all about him. good call.
you hear that, James? James???

― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 November 2003 18:42 (twenty years ago) link

okay totally deraling but...

J0hn I'm surprised you aren't giving Baraka the benefit of the doubt, y'know, poetic license and all. And the "one state westward" stuff was about how your position is exactly that of the Democratic governor of New Jersey, James McGreevey, who eliminated the New Jersey Poet Laureate position because Baraka wouldn't resign - somebody said "at least he's not Rick Santorum," who is of course one state westward in Pennsylvania.

Read more about it from Baraka's p.o.v. if you like. Not saying I agree with his reasoning all of the time, but the attempts to silence him because he dare write a poem are outrageous and uncalled for.

― hstencil, Monday, 17 November 2003 18:43 (twenty years ago) link

h - I oppose all attempts to silence Baraka! still think that poem (and misogyny in The Dutchman and several other positions he's taken over the years) are sufficient to justify interrogating his other works. Didn't call for his resignation/revocation, have been reading his work since 1984, have enough respect for his brilliant rhetorical & poetic capabilities that I go a little off the rails when I think he's full of shit.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 18:52 (twenty years ago) link

okay, fair enough. The whole brouhaha over that poem really bugs me (mostly because it's not a very good poem, thus not worth the hassle) because 1) he easily could've been writing in character, 2) the myth about Israeli workers staying home that day was widespread and thus worth writing about, I think, and 3) it's not like most of the cricitisms actually talked to why, if he believed the myth, which I find frustrating.

but that's all for a different thread I s'pose.

― hstencil, Monday, 17 November 2003 18:57 (twenty years ago) link

I agree with ddrake, in general. And cinniblount, I dunno why you kept going after him and saying he "played dodgeball" and "didn't get into Oberlin", he was arguing for basically the same position you were. As for the kid who actually started the thread, I think you're looking for some anticon-type stuff(maybe even anti-pop consortium). If so, god help you, 'cause I generally find it unlistenable, and their claim that they are "progressive hip hop" or "beyond hip hop" laughable at best.

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 19:35 (twenty years ago) link

cinniblount, I dunno why you kept going after him and saying he "played dodgeball" and "didn't get into Oberlin", he was arguing for basically the same position you were.

Maybe it is because ddrake cannot state his opinion on anything in a way that doesn't reek of asshattery.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Monday, 17 November 2003 19:40 (twenty years ago) link

and their claim that they are "progressive hip hop" or "beyond hip hop" laughable at best

"I don't like it, therefore claims that it's good are specious"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 19:42 (twenty years ago) link

You really don't think anticon sucks? You buy their hype that they're "beyond hip hop"? They're just pandering to your own desire to feel that the music you're listening to is "advanced".

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 19:45 (twenty years ago) link

good != progressive or advanced

― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 November 2003 19:46 (twenty years ago) link

Big Boi you're not talking to me, I don't have any opinion re: Anticon. I'm pointing out that your stance seems less critical than "omg that music sux0rz!"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 19:47 (twenty years ago) link

And that doesn't mean that I think their music is bad and anyone who likes it is an idiot. There's no allowing for taste. It just means that their posturing is just as contrived as The Strokes'.

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 19:48 (twenty years ago) link

And I think a lot of their fans buy into that, consciously or subconsciously. Progressive or advanced doesn't necessarily mean good, and it definitely doesn't mean you have to disrespect those who came before you. There's really an air of superiority to the way Anticon goes about their business.

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 19:50 (twenty years ago) link

http://www.internetclass.com/shaking%20hands.jpg

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 19:51 (twenty years ago) link

Egotism? In hip-hop? Get out! *winky*

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 19:52 (twenty years ago) link

when we don't like it it's egotism, when we like it it's bravado

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 19:54 (twenty years ago) link

It's beyond just that though. It takes a certain level of condescension to call your album "Music For the Advancement of Hip Hop" and keep saying "fuck hip hop", "hip hop is dead", etc, in your interviews. I mean yeah, Hip Hop is stale in places, but it's also big enough to encompass a lot of different scenes within it. I'm not the biggest Def Jux fan in the world, but at least the people actually making the music there don't turn their nose up when the words "hip hop" are mentioned. The respect is still there. My own dislike of anticon's music exacerbates the problem, but even without that I don't wanna listen to someone who's gonna disrespect those who came before them. Especially because, with hip hop, if you're an almost entirely white crew, and you say "fuck hip hop", you're making a racial statement too, whether you realize it or not.

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:01 (twenty years ago) link

it sure gets them a lot of attention though, doesn't it? Hmm...

― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:04 (twenty years ago) link

Big Boi I actually agree with you on most of this, I just get really tired of all the hatoration that gets put on undie hip-hop around here. Your point about white crews making blanket statements about the health of hip-hop is well-taken.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:05 (twenty years ago) link

Fair enough John. I don't mean to make a blanket statement about indie hip hop, as my favorite stuff often tends to come from the small labels (Subterraneous, for example, should definitely be checked out. Subverse does it up right too.) I just have my own problems with anticon, and some of the attitudes that they promote.

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:10 (twenty years ago) link

Actually I entirely agree with Big Boi, and I like some Anticon stuff. They themselves (or Doseone at the very least) have admitted that Music for the Advancement of Hip-Hop was a horrible title.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:14 (twenty years ago) link

since no one has mentioned it yet, I have a good amount of love for that new Omid record, and for Mush Records generally--they do the semi-instrumental and experimental stuff w/o coming across like they're having an identity crisis on wax. it's smart and tweaks conventions a bit w/o forgoing what hip-hop fans by and large like about hip-hop, and it's a good bridge to weirder stuff.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:23 (twenty years ago) link

(just as important, it's a good bridge from weirder stuff to mainstream stuff)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:24 (twenty years ago) link

Well, if it takes someone else saying it for people to agree with me, so be it, listen to big boi.
Not like that's not what I've been saying this entire time or anything....

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:36 (twenty years ago) link

Is it? Really?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:37 (twenty years ago) link

It is now!

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:38 (twenty years ago) link

Um, no, its always what I've been saying.

Notice how big boi kicked it off with "I agree with ddrake."

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link

and would you like the rest of us to follow suit, then? because even when we agree with you, and a lot of us do, the idea that we're supposed to begin our posts with "I agree with ddrake" seems to be a running theme in your posts.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:44 (twenty years ago) link

Nonsense.
When did I ever say that?
Where were all these people backing me up back when Ned and his ethugs were smacking me down for the first half of this thread?
Why do even the people who agree with me feel the need to constantly give me shit?

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:46 (twenty years ago) link

drake can you copy-and-paste the parts where you were saying what Big Boi has now said?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:47 (twenty years ago) link

Well, he's addressed more specifically with regards to anticon, but its the same line of thought I've suggested throughout the entire thread.

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:47 (twenty years ago) link

I think you got treated a lil harshly here, but you seem to take an extreme stance, get called out on it, then modify it and say "but that's what i've been saying the whole time!"

― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:48 (twenty years ago) link

Ned and his ethugs

One of the saddest/funniest things about all this is assuming that everyone else who has posted on this thread with (well-deserved) barbs in your direction does so simply because they're my toadies or something like that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:48 (twenty years ago) link

maybe because your repeat yourself to an unusual degree, take more pride in being right all along than is really necessary for this discussion, and come across as extremely self-righteous? just a guess.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:48 (twenty years ago) link

xpost

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link

James may just give up at once. If you are looking for good and actually musically sophisticated hip-hop, then that is not going to happen. And the responses in this thread show why. Hip-hop are doomed to stay shit forever, because the hip-hop audience has got this sick idea that musical sophistication is "white" (=bad).

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link

I had trouble taking your "arguments" seriously after this:

James.
You are asking for whiter hip hop.
Admit it.
-- ddrake (ddrak...), November 17th, 2003 10:54 PM.

To be perfectly honest.

x-post woah lemme get back to ya on this fucking A

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:50 (twenty years ago) link

Drake, I think you really got off on the wrong foot when you said:

James.
You are asking for whiter hip hop.
Admit it.

Big Boi singled out a specific crew for specific reasons and didn't race-bait.

Geir, shut up, please, you don't know what you're talking about.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:50 (twenty years ago) link

note: I am not exempting myself from any of those things, here or elsewhere. but the question was asked.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:50 (twenty years ago) link

He's right. I was just expounding, (eloquently and with feeling, I might add), on what ddrake was saying, about the dangers of thinking your brand of hip hop is "better" or "more advanced" than hip hop, and I used anticon to illustrate that point. And he was getting attacked unfairly in this thread, especially the personal insults and the "ha ha, your college is a bad college" shit.

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:50 (twenty years ago) link

If you are looking for good and actually musically sophisticated hip-hop, then that is not going to happen.

And then there are sentences which make me ponder if humanity is not worth exploding to death.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:51 (twenty years ago) link

Bullshit.
Well-deserved? Perhaps you'd like to explain.

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:52 (twenty years ago) link

Perhaps you'd like to explain.

I think Matos just did.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:53 (twenty years ago) link

I reject Big Boi's assertion of authorial omniscience ;)

― Roland Barthes (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:54 (twenty years ago) link

I think Matos just did.

And I responded in turn.

― ddrake, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:55 (twenty years ago) link

I never said it didn't describe most of the people on ILM! It just applies to you to a notable degree on this thread.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:55 (twenty years ago) link

Geir,
Either you think of yourself as a provacateur of some sort, or you're really that deluded. Either way, get a life.

Roland,
Uhh....I went to a pretty decent college, and I'm still not sure what you just said.

― Big Boi, Monday, 17 November 2003 20:55 (twenty years ago) link

btw, I've done before what I just said you do. I find it's not even about changing your position, but just changing the language and tone you use to explain your position (which is only natural when you come into a thread snarky and curt and then have to defend yourself with longer, more thought out responses to people criticising you)

― oops (Oops), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:55 (twenty years ago) link

So I'm still curious as to why a discussion on the progression of other styles of music that are as old as hip-hop doesn't create such tension.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:56 (twenty years ago) link

'cause we never talk about the blues around here

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:58 (twenty years ago) link

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