I'm sorry but Paul Simon is so overrated

max to me this is just fun is all! I was weirded out when you were like comin politics-thread style, the dialectic fire of music discussion is a blast to me, I want more ppl comin all PAUL SIMON OWNS style that is fun imo and is an opportunity to really explore my thoughts about both more. anyway what I was gonna say:

i actually think you sort of secretly acknowledge this when you talk about the things that simon is good at.

no secret at all! you said initially

also simon is a better lyricist than stupid ol leonard cohen

which you then amended w/ there are very few people who can write words to music (and perform them) better than paul simon can which is true, but Simon's stuff ventures into it-works-best-if-you-hear-it territory - which - I lean both ways tbh, sometimes I think that's where the real deal is, where it's only truly great if it only works in that one moment when the words are at play in the air...because that's the original nature of the art, heard-not-read, for people who listen not people who're reading...and then other times I'm like, no that's bullshit, truly great lyricists work on paper and in-vivo and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, you can rip it free from its context and it's still tuff as fuck. And while Simon seems to understand song formalism better, there's no question that metrically Cohen runs him ragged - Cohen's actual-poetry gift is just like whoa, his "numbers" in the old sense are just godlike

haha i wrote the bit about writing words to music to make it clear that by "lyricist" i meant something different than "word arranger"

yeah i think max yr right tho,

i see cohen as a poet first, whereas simon is master of american pop songwriting and fundamentally to me a MUSICIAN...cohen is essentially a non-musician who, by way of having such an incredibly amazing sense of aesthetics (and a simple, but really canny way with melody) was able to put himself in situations where his words and the musical setting came together to form something really special..and really singular IMO...

but i mean if you're talking like who is the most talented musically, there's no question...simon can write so much broader in terms of idiom and obv whether it was folk or orchestral pop or ersatz african or 70s FM rock or whatever it was, he knows how to mix with it and is good enough a musician and songwriter and performer to to it.

then other times I'm like, no that's bullshit, truly great lyricists work on paper and in-vivo and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference, you can rip it free from its context and it's still tuff as fuck.

That's the thing: I have no interest in ripping lyrics free from their original context.

David Hildegger

that said, i think simon was at his best when he had a great collaborative partner like art garfunkel or chevy chase

.cohen is essentially a non-musician who, by way of having such an incredibly amazing sense of aesthetics (and a simple, but really canny way with melody) was able to put himself in situations where his words and the musical setting came together to form something really special.

btw this is how I regard Robert Forster and Bowie too.

btw i agree that "50 ways to leave yr lover" is really corny but if you ever wanted a version that just had that mellow-as-hell rainy-day opening and those sick steve gadd drums here it is:

http://soundcloud.com/aordisco/50-ways-to-leave-your-lover-pollyns-re-edit-remix-paul-simon

haha i wrote the bit about writing words to music to make it clear that by "lyricist" i meant something different than "word arranger"

well, but cohen's stuff are lyrics. because poetry is actually just song lyrics written down - which cohen really seems to get, this seems like a big part of what he's doing. it's not just poetry set to music; it takes flight in music; but it survives better on paper than simon's imo. a somewhat meaningless distinction - ghostface is a genius but I'm not about to sit down and read "nutmeg," it has to be heard to be grasped - and cohen also writes poetry; it's quite different from his lyrics. it's just that simon's tradition is this specifically American words-and-melody thing and cohen's is really more medieval-troubadour stuff.

(this btw is where we venture very deeply into my-own-personal-what-I-value stuff - I've always preferred stuff that can be presented either way & still slay, despite my antipathy toward printing lyrics on a sleeve)

i think asking that words be able to be received in two different contexts is kind of placing demands on the art that it doesnt deserve

tbf i dont think he's placing demands, just pointing out that cohen's stuff endures the contextual shift and simon's basically doesn't

bowie is probably a much better comparison than cohen not that i know much about cohen.

i like simon more than bowie though like a lot more

yeah i thought the bowie comparison was p apt

i think asking that words be able to be received in two different contexts is kind of placing demands on the art that it doesnt deserve

yeah I mean I vacillate deeply on this stuff. me on tuesday will tell me on sunday that sunday me was full of shit. aerosmith albums don't have lyric sheets even though it would probably help our cause a lot but I don't care, because I believe strongly that the place to experience the lyrics is in the song: that's where they live. but when we're talking about how good they are, then I feel like it's fair to start putting some heavy demands on them, testing them. "suzanne" is a mellow jam to hear and float along to, you don't have to go all deep w/it -- but look at it on paper -- damn -- still good -- you know? but as I say, I mean, I will be debating w/myself about this issue on the day they lower me into the ground and some asshole plays "me & julio" at the funeral & laffs because I am too dead to shake my fist

Paul Simon is so much a better lyricist than Bowie it's not even funny, even though I'd rather listen to Bowie any day of the week

what I omitted from my original Bowie post is that obviously so much else matters while listening to Bowie: presentation for one.

Bowie is best appreciated when young.

would 'good lyrics' even fit bowie's aesthetic?

no!

just imagining the memorial service, all solemn readings of 'dude looks like a lady'

good lyrics matter for Bowie insofar as they advance the game he's playing on that particular album

Don't know if it's mentioned upthread, but it's BS that Simon "just discovered" any sort of global music pre-Graceland. I mean, the very first song on his very first album was a reggae song recorded in Jamaica with Jimmy Cliff's band. That's pre-Catch a Fire, for sure, and about as early as non-Jamaican reggae gets. And plenty of his other records are peppered with various Latin and nu-Yorican rhythms. He found inspiration where he found it.

yep

i am just surprised that everyone took me so seriously. i guess this is the first ILM thread i have engaged with in a while. sorry guys, leonard cohen rules.

I was really hoping you were being serious!

Also, Simon is def. "exploring" African music on "Graceland." That he links zydeco back to African jive, let alone by way of Los Lobos' Mexico, or implicitly connects the Ladysmith a cappella stuff to the doo wop of his youth shows he's very aware of the ongoing African cultural diaspora and how far its music has reached. There's a quote from the Classic Albums series from guitarist Ray Phiri: "We were influenced by American music. American music was for us … it was like sharing information. So it was a two-way traffic. We used Paul as much as Paul used us.”

there was no mention of “joint writing”.

That's a helluva rationalization. "Hey, Los Lobos didn't tell me they wrote that music, so I just assumed I did!"

Also, that song has probably the worst drum sound of the 80s.

that said, i think simon was at his best when he had a great collaborative partner like art garfunkel or chevy chase

― om nom nom nnamdi asomugha (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:00 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol

Don't forget Steve Martin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_002KDRoKM

lmao that video is incredible

I love Paul Simon and can't imagine wanting to put him down.

It's petty that people squabbled over some old song that was OK.

The only thing that does put me off PS is that he sings quite a lot about god and religiosity. These are not my kind of thing.

But I suppose or imagine that believing in those things makes PS feel happier.

I love 2004.

i like steve martin's punchy hand gesture to accompany "proust"

do you like "the obvious child," pf?

obviously

that song is pretty jesusy!

The only thing that does put me off PS is that he sings quite a lot about god and religiosity. These are not my kind of thing.

i can guess which you'd prefer between paul simon and leonard cohen then

pinefox, do you like R&B or gospel?

i can guess which you'd prefer between paul simon and leonard cohen then

haha i was thinking!!!

do you guys think the speaker of "still crazy after all these years" killed his ex-girlfriend? i sort of do.

Horseshoe, I love 'the obvious child'.

I don't listen to Leonard Cohen. I've never owned any of his work.

I like R&B in a general way, as on the Paul Jones radio programme. I don't really know gospel except in the distant way that anyone does, and on RATTLE & HUM.

Horsehoe, I don't know 'still crazy' well enough to say.

I don't really know gospel except in the distant way that anyone does, and on RATTLE & HUM.

haha good answer

he says, "i fear i'll do some damage one fine day," but there are so many ellipses in that song, like

I met my old lover
On the street last night
She seemed so glad to see me
I just smiled
And we talked about some old times
And we drank ourselves some beers
Still crazy after all these years

and it's like, what happened between the beers and the crazy?

i love the god bothering stuff

hat happened between the beers and the crazy?

^^^^ good lyric

* what

i love the god bothering stuff

― ℗⎣▲✘ (ico), Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:34 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

yeah it's there from the beginning, that yearning for transcendental experience or whatever

angels in the architecture, spinning in infinity, sweet angels sing "hallelujah"

And I will lay my burden down
Rest my head upon that shore
And when I wear that starry crown
I won't be wanting anymore

starry is such a pretty word

I believe
I BELIEVE
in the Kingdom Come
IN THE KINGDOM COME
Then all the colours
ALLLL THE COLOURS
will bleed into one
BLEEEEED INTO O--O-OONE

You broke the bonds
BROKE THE BONDS
And you loosed the chains
LOOSED THE CHAINS
Carried the cross
CARRIED THE CROSS
of my shame
OF MY SHAME
you know I believe it.

I BELIEVE IT!

You know, I do