I'm sorry but Paul Simon is so overrated

i dont really know any leonard cohen

so i dont mind us not talking about leonard cohen

john has now successfully hijacked this conversation away from a discussion of the lyrical merits of paul simon vs. leonard cohen because he knew he was going to lose

can you point me at this imaginary earlier lyrical merits vs. discussion & the posts made abt? I mean literally everybody knows Simon's good & Cohen's great lyrics-wise, that's not even a discussion afaik

Lamp are you going to answer my question or what btw

stupid challop but i guess this is the thread for it: much of simon's best work was done before he started recording under his own name

― Lamp, Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:24 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark

i just want everyone to agree that i won the fight and then you can go back to yr colonialism 102 seminar

u don't fuck with early leonard cohen

i am not stipulating that anyone is a better lyricist than anyone else. except, i guess bob dylan is better than everyone, but whatever.

i just want everyone to agree that i won the fight and then you can go back to yr colonialism 102 seminar

I lol'd

Lamp do you like the jerry landis stuff better than simon solo or s&g better? if the latter, u crazy, if the former i need to listen to these jerry landis songs

i love the jerry landis stuff the best! i mean i know its not actually the best the way 'graceland' is but stuff like play me a sad song or lisa or lone teen ranger are some of my favorite paul simon ~songs~ maybe because theyre really limited in range and form, like these amazing static pop songs that still manage to be sorta weird and emotional idk

but this is why i wanted 2 do a longform paul simon poll - he has such a varied and distinct catalog & i think itd be rad to kinda see peoples take on that

i am going to lose my mind when the paul simon poll rolls around in 2012

wk was like "leonard cohen is better" and i was like "paul simon is as good a lyricist as leonard cohen" and then everyone felt like they had to defend leonard cohen, as though leonard cohen is someone who needs defending, leonard cohen winner of croatia's "porin" award, leonard cohen companion of the order of canada

yea rad like barf bags on airplanes xxp

okay listening to this jerry landis song on youtube and lolling at how in character it is for lamp to like this

paul simon may not have a musicologists understanding of the various musics of the world, he may not even have a plain txt message board posters cultural understanding, but he pretty clearly gets something abt making music which is why listening to the deeply sensitive soundz of graceland renders all the reductionist cries of cultural imperialism hegemony! silly

― ice cr?m, Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:18 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

crammy is otmmy

prince of asturias award more like piss on ass urea award

is this the lil fella in that chevy chase song?

its super crazy that paul simon has been recording music since the 1950s

haha all things considered he looks great

tbh as much as i <3 simon and a lot of his lyrics i kinda think that he's plowing a different furrow than dylan or cohen? not in subject matter or w/e but i've always considered him more of a ~sounds~ guy than those two? vague, i know, but i value the whole sonic experience of, say, hearts&bones more than visions of johanna or w/e. or: listening to graceland on tinny headphones would degrade the experience more severely than it would highway 61 revisited. imo

He a very short-lived musical called The Cave Man, I think. I loved the sndtrk to that and was super excited to get tickets only to arrive at the theater and find it had closed down. So bummed.

i know some nerd (AERO) is gonna come along talk about guitar tone or dylan's weird voice and what it all means, but i think the point stands

I mean if you really wanna go in on this, that's cool, the idea that I'm not a guy who'll talk about lyrics all day is a little lol, but Simon sort of specializes in formulaic exercises - I'm a huge defender of formulaic exercises, I think what sucks about 90-odd percent of lyrics is that people haven't learned the formulae. How to use a refrain ("Still Crazy") instead of a chorus, how to leave a loose end hanging as a way of enriching the lyric, how and when to peek out from behind the craft to make sure the reader sees & feels the human being who's speaking/singing (Graceland is his high-water mark for this, but he'd been working toward that sort of formal/personal meld his whole career, or at least since he went solo - "Kodachrome" hits it pretty nicely, "Me & Julio" too.

But in all these aspects he is decidedly Cohen's junior, forever a lesser light. Cohen's formal mastery is total ("The Story of Isaac"); but his ability to flesh out that formal mastery with personal & topical moments is also with peer ("The Story of Isaac"); his gift for imagery stands with the titans like Basho or Wallace Stevens ("The Story of Isaac"). He gives you all these looks in one song, is the point, and he does it over and over again.

As a melodicist there is no contest, Paul Simon can melodically kill Leonard Cohen every day before breakfast. But lyrically Paul Simon is, as he evidences with "Richard Cory," given to a fatal lack of depth - "I wish that I could be Richard Cory"? Really? Robinson needed that? That's what you took from that poem? Really? And again, this kinda points up Simon's attitude toward the stuff he engages: he thinks what great texts/musics are missing is the sterling insight of Paul Simon. Which is a little offputting, even when the melodic and lyrical gifts on display are as incontestibly good as his are.

with peer

without peer

damn scriveners

i do want you to talk about lyrics all day tbh

lol no you don't I am a fuckin blowhard.

see i can get with that aero (i'll cop to not being well-versed in cohen), it's just that it's simon's talent as a melodicist/"arranger" that, for me, pushes him into a distinctly different musical category---i'm not gonna dither between dylan and simon when i'm reaching for something to listen to, they're not hitting the same switches

xp no horseshoe otm

sorry bro

and i know that this is kinda pat and not v nuanced but it kills me and if i am in a car or my apartment it calls for maudlin singalongs

And tell me why
Why won't you love me
For who I am
Where I am
He said:
'Cause that's not the way the world is baby
This is how I love you, baby
This is how I love you, baby

i do think the s&g lyrics lack depth; they also irritate me a lot of the time. but he matured! this seems unfair:

he thinks what great texts/musics are missing is the sterling insight of Paul Simon

He a very short-lived musical called The Cave Man, I think. I loved the sndtrk to that and was super excited to get tickets only to arrive at the theater and find it had closed down. So bummed.

― ladies love draculas like children love stray dogs (ENBB), Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:46 PM Bookmark

close! it was The Capeman

haha i was about to say, lol the cave man

tbh as much as i <3 simon and a lot of his lyrics i kinda think that he's plowing a different furrow than dylan or cohen? not in subject matter or w/e but i've always considered him more of a ~sounds~ guy than those two?

I agree with this. The very specific sound of various Simon songs is one of the biggest draws for me in his music. I'd say he's more pop, but a 70s model of it.

As a melodicist there is no contest, Paul Simon can melodically kill Leonard Cohen every day before breakfast.

yeah this was basically the comparison i was tryna make (sorry max) cuz like '50 ways to leave your lover' is a total jam, catchy and funny and fun to listen to in a way cohen could never manage but when hes listing off the different ways so many of them are kinda nonsensical or awkward in order to fit the rhyme scheme ('get a new plan, stan'?) that it doesnt distract from the song but its still p corny

areo otm re simon and cohens relative lyrical merits, and thats a p insightful and interesting post altogether, my only complaint is maybe its not really that easy to tease simons lyrics from his melody and delivery, like they play vv well together in a way that cohens growling over plunking guitar steez doesnt, i mean i know i could just read the lyrics on a piece of paper or w/e but that i have no interest in doing so says something

paul simon is totally corny, i will admit, but i am, too, so

I remember the Capeman got some really harsh reviews. He went through three directors, and basically the response was that he seemed very naive about how Broadway shows worked....

his score was praised though (I remember hearing and liking "Bernadette")

xxxpost

richard cory is p early in simon's career & seems odd to hold against him
ps as a kid i liked that song for its traditional-ness i guess but i was raised on burl ives so

yeah this was basically the comparison i was tryna make (sorry max) cuz like '50 ways to leave your lover' is a total jam, catchy and funny and fun to listen to in a way cohen could never manage but when hes listing off the different ways so many of them are kinda nonsensical or awkward in order to fit the rhyme scheme ('get a new plan, stan'?) that it doesnt distract from the song but its still p corny

― Lamp, Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:58 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this feels almost too obviously corny to be 'corny' to me
if that makes sense

I had a longer post but I should own up that I relate more strongly to Cohen in part because melody is difficult for me, if it wasn't for mrs. aero being pretty ruthless about saying "melodically you're being boring there" I would get a lot more writing done & lots of it would sound exactly the same - whereas Simon specializes in breezy wasn't-this-always-just-sitting-right-there? melodies, enviably effortless feel

richard cory is p early in simon's career & seems odd to hold against him

this is what i meant when i said i didn't like simon & garfunkel lyrics. i guess it's true that he's obsessed with himself and his experiences but it doesn't hurt the later songwriting afaic.

Stealing song from Los Lobos: Dud

We only have dumb inarticulate Lobos guy's word for it!

I wish we wouldn't spend as much time discussing Simon's lyrics as we do about what interesting chordal patterns this guy picks on his guitar.

richard cory is p early in simon's career & seems odd to hold against him

fair point, though "I am a rock" is from the same phase

i am too dumb about that stuff :(

xp

I wish we wouldn't spend as much time discussing Simon's lyrics as we do about what interesting chordal patterns this guy picks on his guitar.

oh hush you, either say yourself what those chordal patterns are or cease yr whinin

I tend to pretend the S&G stuff doesn't exist to be honest.

yes he had flashes of brilliance during the garfunkel era but a lot of stuff was just embarrassing. and then paul simon is just so !!!

yes he had flashes of brilliance during the garfunkel era but a lot of stuff was just embarrassing. and then paul simon is just so !!!

makes you wonder who he ripped off amirite lol

JUST A JOKE EVERYBODY BE CALM.

okay listening to this jerry landis song on youtube and lolling at how in character it is for lamp to like this

ok lol @ this too btw iirc