I'm sorry but Paul Simon is so overrated

the deep sensitivity is the key

yeah I mean max it's a thread for talking about whether paul simon is overrated I think if discussing paul simon's songwriting thoughts & practices is a bummer to you you are on the wrong thread

i am probably going to fumble this observation but i'm not sure there's a way that paul simon could have made an African music album that was not colonial in the sense you mean, aero? i take your point that he could have gone further and you're right, he made use of african music to do a thing he was already doing, but that's what musicians do, right? i'm not saying there are no ethical stakes. i don't know, i love graceland so much, i am totally implicated in its colonialism.

me: paul simon rules leonard cohen drools

this thread title is stupid but i mean lets not go crazy here

i went a little crazy there i admit it

i feel like its p much an insult to the musicians he worked w/on graceland to call it colonialist, i mean who are they in this story

i am not really interested in doing anything but defending paul simon from the charge that he is not as good a lyricist as [insert yr favorite grizzled baudelaire fan here]

Lamp do you like the jerry landis stuff better than simon solo or s&g better? if the latter, u crazy, if the former i need to listen to these jerry landis songs

i feel like its p much an insult to the musicians he worked w/on graceland to call it colonialist, i mean who are they in this story

― ice cr?m, Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:22 PM (22 seconds ago) Bookmark

yeah like you can always a priori call an encounter between the first and third world colonial but it erases a lot of nuances

i don't think there's ever any indication in graceland that he's like *exploring* african music, i think he does keep it at arms length in this way, the same thing you're complaining about is a big strength i think for me. like he's not interested in african music AS african music or like taking this almost anthropological route with it, i think he's just thinking about how these are cool musicians to work with, let's see how we can get some milage out of this. i think for somebody that started out with like straight acoustic guitar and voice songwriting, he has spent a lot of recording time like *loosening* up the structures of his songs, from his first solo album on you get the sense of him moving in different directions (the lush jazziness and disco flourishes on h+b, the jam band vibe on one trick pony) that open out the rigid structures of his songs (his s/t is so good because he does this more successfully inside the songs themselves than ever again, peace like a river is the best example of what i mean but i don't know if i'm explaining this in any intelligible way at all) so like i get the feeling that he heard that careening highlife guitar sound and was like, "yeah that'll work, let's do an album like that" and so his interest in the music just works AS an interest in the music and not as something ethical and geographical and sociological but just like really formal and so it does seem pretty fair to me that he just dumped it after one (though listen to the guitar sound on father and daughter if you think he really DID just ditch that sound altogether) (i realise that there are major problems with this notion that hell i'm probably the ilxor most likely to jump on if somebody else started spouting them but in this case i'm willing to let him off the hook because rhythm of the saints is a damn good album and by john's prescription he shouldn't have made it)

ok lots of xps that more concisely say that than that block of bad grammar

peace like a river! i am obsessed with that song!

i am probably going to fumble this observation but i'm not sure there's a way that paul simon could have made an African music album that was not colonial in the sense you mean, aero? i take your point that he could have gone further and you're right, he made use of african music to do a thing he was already doing, but that's what musicians do, right? i'm not saying there are no ethical stakes. i don't know, i love graceland so much, i am totally implicated in its colonialism.

No, look, this is the question, and it's a hard q imo (and one that people've done plenty of handwringing about no doubt). There's going to be an element of cultural tourism no matter what, but most musicians & some (correct imo) listeners will say "look, music's a global conversation, what am I supposed to do, genuflect in front of a map or play benefits before I participate in that conversation, fuck you," but at the same time Simon's engagement with these musics seems profoundly superficial to me? I get that for max & many others "the only thing that matters is whether the tunes are good" -- and they are, you have to be an idiot to deny it -- but this is sort of symptomatic of a broader superficiality in his whole view, cf. "musical theatre! it's narrow, because I know nothing about it!"

Something So Right is my Simon jam

xpost

jhosh I'm givin you a promotion

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:15 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol ty, ty

whoa hold on i am specifically not commenting on the colonialism or lack thereof of graceland lets not put words in my mouth

someone near the very start of the thread said that simon was less artisticly successful than cohen and dylan and i was surprised both by the comparison (i would never have really thought to lump cohen and simon 2gether) and by the statement (although i figure thats the sort of thing thats deeply dependent on where ur cummin from so)

but i kinda liked the comparison as a 'thought exercise' once it had been made cuz they do sorta parallel well and my fave albums by both are really different in tone and spirit but ill stick by my early assessments. also i mean i love both of those dudes records a lot they are the best!!!

john has now successfully hijacked this conversation away from a discussion of the lyrical merits of paul simon vs. leonard cohen because he knew he was going to lose

totally, leonard cohen + paul simon 4eva!

having said that I will always sigh deeply in appreciation at "And I could say Oo oo oo/As if everybody knows/What I'm talking about/As if everybody would know/Exactly what I was talking about"

i dont really know any leonard cohen

so i dont mind us not talking about leonard cohen

john has now successfully hijacked this conversation away from a discussion of the lyrical merits of paul simon vs. leonard cohen because he knew he was going to lose

can you point me at this imaginary earlier lyrical merits vs. discussion & the posts made abt? I mean literally everybody knows Simon's good & Cohen's great lyrics-wise, that's not even a discussion afaik

Lamp are you going to answer my question or what btw

stupid challop but i guess this is the thread for it: much of simon's best work was done before he started recording under his own name

― Lamp, Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:24 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark

i just want everyone to agree that i won the fight and then you can go back to yr colonialism 102 seminar

u don't fuck with early leonard cohen

i am not stipulating that anyone is a better lyricist than anyone else. except, i guess bob dylan is better than everyone, but whatever.

i just want everyone to agree that i won the fight and then you can go back to yr colonialism 102 seminar

I lol'd

Lamp do you like the jerry landis stuff better than simon solo or s&g better? if the latter, u crazy, if the former i need to listen to these jerry landis songs

i love the jerry landis stuff the best! i mean i know its not actually the best the way 'graceland' is but stuff like play me a sad song or lisa or lone teen ranger are some of my favorite paul simon ~songs~ maybe because theyre really limited in range and form, like these amazing static pop songs that still manage to be sorta weird and emotional idk

but this is why i wanted 2 do a longform paul simon poll - he has such a varied and distinct catalog & i think itd be rad to kinda see peoples take on that

i am going to lose my mind when the paul simon poll rolls around in 2012

wk was like "leonard cohen is better" and i was like "paul simon is as good a lyricist as leonard cohen" and then everyone felt like they had to defend leonard cohen, as though leonard cohen is someone who needs defending, leonard cohen winner of croatia's "porin" award, leonard cohen companion of the order of canada

yea rad like barf bags on airplanes xxp

okay listening to this jerry landis song on youtube and lolling at how in character it is for lamp to like this

paul simon may not have a musicologists understanding of the various musics of the world, he may not even have a plain txt message board posters cultural understanding, but he pretty clearly gets something abt making music which is why listening to the deeply sensitive soundz of graceland renders all the reductionist cries of cultural imperialism hegemony! silly

― ice cr?m, Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:18 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

crammy is otmmy

prince of asturias award more like piss on ass urea award

is this the lil fella in that chevy chase song?

its super crazy that paul simon has been recording music since the 1950s

haha all things considered he looks great

tbh as much as i <3 simon and a lot of his lyrics i kinda think that he's plowing a different furrow than dylan or cohen? not in subject matter or w/e but i've always considered him more of a ~sounds~ guy than those two? vague, i know, but i value the whole sonic experience of, say, hearts&bones more than visions of johanna or w/e. or: listening to graceland on tinny headphones would degrade the experience more severely than it would highway 61 revisited. imo

He a very short-lived musical called The Cave Man, I think. I loved the sndtrk to that and was super excited to get tickets only to arrive at the theater and find it had closed down. So bummed.

i know some nerd (AERO) is gonna come along talk about guitar tone or dylan's weird voice and what it all means, but i think the point stands

I mean if you really wanna go in on this, that's cool, the idea that I'm not a guy who'll talk about lyrics all day is a little lol, but Simon sort of specializes in formulaic exercises - I'm a huge defender of formulaic exercises, I think what sucks about 90-odd percent of lyrics is that people haven't learned the formulae. How to use a refrain ("Still Crazy") instead of a chorus, how to leave a loose end hanging as a way of enriching the lyric, how and when to peek out from behind the craft to make sure the reader sees & feels the human being who's speaking/singing (Graceland is his high-water mark for this, but he'd been working toward that sort of formal/personal meld his whole career, or at least since he went solo - "Kodachrome" hits it pretty nicely, "Me & Julio" too.

But in all these aspects he is decidedly Cohen's junior, forever a lesser light. Cohen's formal mastery is total ("The Story of Isaac"); but his ability to flesh out that formal mastery with personal & topical moments is also with peer ("The Story of Isaac"); his gift for imagery stands with the titans like Basho or Wallace Stevens ("The Story of Isaac"). He gives you all these looks in one song, is the point, and he does it over and over again.

As a melodicist there is no contest, Paul Simon can melodically kill Leonard Cohen every day before breakfast. But lyrically Paul Simon is, as he evidences with "Richard Cory," given to a fatal lack of depth - "I wish that I could be Richard Cory"? Really? Robinson needed that? That's what you took from that poem? Really? And again, this kinda points up Simon's attitude toward the stuff he engages: he thinks what great texts/musics are missing is the sterling insight of Paul Simon. Which is a little offputting, even when the melodic and lyrical gifts on display are as incontestibly good as his are.

with peer

without peer

damn scriveners

i do want you to talk about lyrics all day tbh

lol no you don't I am a fuckin blowhard.

see i can get with that aero (i'll cop to not being well-versed in cohen), it's just that it's simon's talent as a melodicist/"arranger" that, for me, pushes him into a distinctly different musical category---i'm not gonna dither between dylan and simon when i'm reaching for something to listen to, they're not hitting the same switches

xp no horseshoe otm

sorry bro

and i know that this is kinda pat and not v nuanced but it kills me and if i am in a car or my apartment it calls for maudlin singalongs

And tell me why
Why won't you love me
For who I am
Where I am
He said:
'Cause that's not the way the world is baby
This is how I love you, baby
This is how I love you, baby

i do think the s&g lyrics lack depth; they also irritate me a lot of the time. but he matured! this seems unfair:

he thinks what great texts/musics are missing is the sterling insight of Paul Simon

He a very short-lived musical called The Cave Man, I think. I loved the sndtrk to that and was super excited to get tickets only to arrive at the theater and find it had closed down. So bummed.

― ladies love draculas like children love stray dogs (ENBB), Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:46 PM Bookmark

close! it was The Capeman