also simon is a better lyricist than stupid ol leonard cohen--there are very few people who can write words to music (and perform them) better than paul simon can--also graceland is really amazing
― max, Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:46 (twelve years ago) link
its funny that you should mention writing words to music and graceland in the same breath because its my understanding that it was his first album using that method, before that it was always music to words, and das why graceland feels so free
― ice cr?m, Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:48 (twelve years ago) link
and fwiw cohen owns, lets all be cool
― ice cr?m, Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:49 (twelve years ago) link
If "consensus" matters, then the consensus about Simon's eponymous debut, Still Crazy..., and Graceland still holds. Matos said in a recent column that So Beautiful or So What was so far his favorite album of the year.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:49 (twelve years ago) link
I like Cohen too! I don't have a problem with someone preferring Cohen to Simon; I just don't get this "highly rated" stuff. We're not talking about James Taylor or Al Stewart here.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:50 (twelve years ago) link
great thread
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:14 (twelve years ago) link
This man is so overrated it's pathetic!!
generally speaking when someone drags "it's pathetic!!" or some variation thereof into their criticism it's because they are---or have the critical faculties of---a fourteen year old venting on facebook
― g++ (gbx), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:20 (twelve years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXGBgMBpsI
― Scharlach Sometimes (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:26 (twelve years ago) link
ITT: You can't say "___ sucks" anymore, it's a weird internet rule.
― Super Villains With Drum Machines (MintIce), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:26 (twelve years ago) link
I will say, having seen both Cohen and Simon live in recent years, that Cohen may be the only great living singer/songwriter who may be less of a singer than Simon. Not that it matters, in either case. I'll happily accept Cohen's monotone rumble and Simon's limited but nimble sing-song.
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:28 (twelve years ago) link
maybe I'm way off base but I do feel like there's this certain quality about Simon where he knows he never really reached the level he wanted to attain
I remember reading in that David Browne book "Fire & Rain" that Simon didn't feel like he got his due as a songwriter and was always chasing the kind of respect that Dylan got. Also it pissed him off that people gave Garfunkel most of credit for BOTW even though Simon wrote it. And when he wanted to go solo Clive Davis basically told him that he wasn't well known enough to be a success on his own.
― President Keyes, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:41 (twelve years ago) link
yeah PS does not seem very humble or earnest. not that it detracts from his music.
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:44 (twelve years ago) link
feel like simon never quite got the props of those other dudes cause hes not you know cool
― ice cr?m, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:45 (twelve years ago) link
legendarily one of the nastiest sob's as a person in music. that said, i like not love s&g, love the early solo records, and hate graceland with the passion of a billion white hot suns
― Iago Galdston, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:45 (twelve years ago) link
really? Post some nasty SOB stories!
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:46 (twelve years ago) link
Has he done anything to top this?
― Scharlach Sometimes (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:48 (twelve years ago) link
there's always that Los Lobos story
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:48 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not sure I believe Los Lobos, or rather, I'm not sure they understood the danger of working with a singer-songwriter.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:51 (twelve years ago) link
I assume every famous person is a bit of an SOB, but Simon doesn't seem any worse than most.
― President Keyes, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:53 (twelve years ago) link
Certainly do not understand comparisons to Leonard Cohen who in my view is legend. I guess I am rather bewildered at how someone behind classics like Bridge Over Troubled Water could sink to the lows that he has over the years. I disagree that he seems to know he hasn't reached the level of his contemporaries. From what I can tell he seems to believe in his own pretension.
― Alamac, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:53 (twelve years ago) link
"believing in your own pretensions" is tautological, isn't it?
I hate BOTW tbh.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:54 (twelve years ago) link
I've increasingly come to believe the Los Lobos story is bullshit at worst, a misunderstanding at best. Lot least because Simon made a concerted effort to actual credit many of his African collaborators on that album:
"The Boy in the Bubble" (Forere Motloheloa/Paul Simon) - 3:59"I Know What I Know" (General MD Shirinda/Simon) - 3:13"Gumboots" (Lulu Masilela/Jonhjon Mkhalali/Simon) - 2:44"Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes" (Joseph Shabalala/Simon) - 5:45"Homeless" (Shabalala/Simon) - 3:48
If he wasn't going to fuck the Africans, why would he fuck Los Lobos?
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:55 (twelve years ago) link
was last night the first time you've ever seen a gray-haired old music icon playing lesser new material on TV? xpost
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:56 (twelve years ago) link
Yes, probably tautological. Can someone please tell the Los Lobos story.
― Alamac, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:58 (twelve years ago) link
los lobos always sounded like a bunch of whiners and their music is sort of bad.
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:58 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.jambase.com/Articles/9391/LONE-WOLF-HANGIN%27-WITH-STEVE-BERLIN/0
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:01 (twelve years ago) link
Retroactively, he had to give songwriting credit to all the African guys he stole from that were working on it and everyone seemed to forget.
uh he gave them songwriting credit on the original album!
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:04 (twelve years ago) link
So we go back in the second day wondering why we're there. It was ridiculous. I think David starts playing "The Myth of the Fingerprints," or whatever he ended up calling it. That was one of our songs. That year, that was a song we started working on By Light of the Moon. So that was like an existing Lobos sketch of an idea that we had already started doing. I don't think there were any recordings of it, but we had messed around with it. We knew we were gonna do it. It was gonna turn into a song. Paul goes, "Hey, what's that?" We start playing what we have of it, and it is exactly what you hear on the record. So we're like, "Oh, ok. We'll share this song."
This may be true but I blame the band's naivete.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:05 (twelve years ago) link
lol i dont really care if paul simon is an awful human being but the way lobos bro tells that story it makes no sense at all
― ice cr?m, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:06 (twelve years ago) link
I think David starts playing "The Myth of the Fingerprints," or whatever he ended up calling it. That was one of our songs.
aggrieved studio musicians are the art of pretend forgetfulness
― ice cr?m, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:07 (twelve years ago) link
I just find it difficult to believe that a band whose reputation was already as high as Los Lobos would walk into a Lenny Waronker-arranged studio collaboration with Paul fucking Simon and not understand the consequences.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:07 (twelve years ago) link
if it's any consolation, Lobos bro, "The Myth of Fingerprints" is one of the album's weaker songs.
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:08 (twelve years ago) link
this is my fav part:
We go into the studio, and he had quite literally nothing. I mean, he had no ideas, no concepts, and said, "Well, let's just jam." We said, "We don't really do that." When we jam, we'll switch instruments. Dave will play drums, I'll play something. We don't really jam. Especially in that era. Louie will be the first to tell you this – he was made to play drums. They forced him to play drums. He's not really a drummer by trade. He's never practiced a moment in his life. Not once in his life did he sit down at the drums because of his love for drumming. The other three guys made him play drums in the early days, so he sort of became drummer by default. He hates playing the instrument, I think.
wahhhh they FORCED him to play drums!
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:08 (twelve years ago) link
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, August 7, 2011 10:08 AM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
ehh it's obviously tossed off but the chorus lyrics slay me
― call all destroyer, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:09 (twelve years ago) link
I mean there's no doubt about itIt was the myth of pretend forgetfulness
― livin in my own private Biden hole (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:10 (twelve years ago) link
we jammed, which was a horrible idea that produced a classic album, he stole our songs that sound nothing like los lobos but a lot like paul simon, gave credit to everyone else he worked with, made a dude play drums, we couldve sued him but still havent
― ice cr?m, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:10 (twelve years ago) link
I like the way he keeps saying "favor to the family"
― swaguirre, the wrath of basedgod (bernard snowy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:12 (twelve years ago) link
also the little detail about paul simon mispronouncing 'zydeco' (even tho he gets it right... ON THE ALBUM)
― swaguirre, the wrath of basedgod (bernard snowy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:15 (twelve years ago) link
cause lobos told him is why
― ice cr?m, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:16 (twelve years ago) link
lowblows
― estela, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:19 (twelve years ago) link
Fusion.The intermingling of two musics.I say it's the music of the futureAnd, hey, I oughta know.Have you heard my latest album?It's a masterpiece of fusion,Just a masterpiece of fusionIf I do say so myself.A true collaboration of the heaviest musicians on the planet.
That's Sakimoto playing the bamboo flute. He's a monster.And Big Joseph Nabuma on mbira.Check it out.And over on cabasa...who is that on cabasa?Oh yeah, that's the guy who drove me in from the airport.I forget his name, but he's a monster, too.We're all just monsters of--
Fusion.We're intermingling our musicsIn a welter of ethnic confusion.(Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe.Anh anh.Zimbabwe, zimbabwe.Anh anh.Savuca! Loodloodloodloodloodloodloodloo!)
This pretty tune was written by Hans Leo HasslerIn 1599.I wrote some words and changed about three notes.Now ASCAP says it's mine.I love constructing albumsFrom objects that I find,
From all kinds of folk riffsThat are just sort of out there.Nobody owns them. They're in public domain.And the foreign musicians Who play those folk riffs,Well, they're just grist for my fevered brain.
Mama, don't take my copyright.Gimme that folk riff copyright.Mama, don't take my copyright from me.There've been slurs and innuendoes.There've been nasty little comments.I don't bother to respond to them.They roll right off my back.I'm well aware that there's an element You could call "exploitation"In the way that I appropriate the cultures of these peoplesFor my own commercial purposes.
But everyone who works for me getsCredit.And royaltiesAnd GrammysAnd a chance to ride to stardom on my coattails, lay lay lay.But, hey, let's just remember who's the genius here,Who is the Master of--
Fusion?Fusion.It's a matter of "Finders Keepers."Cause there ain't no copyrights in Fusion.Fusion.We're all just ripping off each otherIn a jungle of ethical con-Fusion.And having a hell of a lot of fun.I'm having a hell of a lot ofBallpark.I'm thinking this song is in the Ballpark... (fade)
― Iago Galdston, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:41 (twelve years ago) link
That was ripped off from an idea I had but never wrote down.
I could never figure out what Los Lobos was doing on that album, anyway.
― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:44 (twelve years ago) link
ILM is feeling like ILM circa 2004, lately.
― _Rudipherous_, Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:52 (twelve years ago) link
frankly i just dont get people who dont like graceland.
― max, Sunday, 7 August 2011 15:13 (twelve years ago) link
xpost cool I love c.2004 ILM
― swaguirre, the wrath of basedgod (bernard snowy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 15:15 (twelve years ago) link
maybe start a new board, "ILM Classic"
Re: Los Lobos: Tite Curet Alonso, a greater songwriter than Simon, with a much better reputation as a person, also complained about collaborating with Simon on the Capeman. I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.
― _Rudipherous_, Sunday, 7 August 2011 15:24 (twelve years ago) link
― swaguirre, the wrath of basedgod (bernard snowy), Sunday, August 7, 2011 11:15 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark
can i play Alex in NYC if the original article isn't available?
― Autism Alamac (some dude), Sunday, 7 August 2011 15:27 (twelve years ago) link
x-post
Acutally, he didn't really say anything devastating about Simon, just said that Simon wasn't really looking for a collaborator when he enlisted Curet Alonso's help in doing research for the Capeman. I don't know if he ever said that Simon had suggested otherwise to begin with.
― _Rudipherous_, Sunday, 7 August 2011 15:32 (twelve years ago) link
that thing he did with eno is the only simon album i have that i don't love (there's something about how the vocals are mixed so high)
what kills it for me is the production on his albums, hearts and bones and rhythm of the saints especially are so sick. the sound of the guitar on hearts and bones (he's also a really interesting and underrated guitar player i think). one thing i like about him is that his best work is his more mature work. like he got better. so many musicians blow their wad, but he obviously spent a lot of his time w/ art garfunkel kindof just focussed on songwriting (stuff like cecelia is more the exception and where you get an inkling of where he might be going with all of this) but his songwriting style is just so *crafted.* his lyrics have a short story quality about them, they're more about observed detail than strong images, although his descriptions are really original ("the Mississippi delta was shining like a national guitar"). i mean i could go on, he works well with collaborators, the south african musicians on graceland, the singer on spirit voices (and the way that works as the spirit voice of the song is so ghostly and beautiful) which is funny in light of people saying that he is really anxious about his reputation, i think his best work is just so comfortably masterful. he lets other people shine. i love the way he uses choirs and backup singers, the "oooohs" on hearts and bones just sound incredible. like he has this way of just lightly touching and orchestrating everything around him. he always seems quietly in control.
― ℗⎣▲✘ (ico), Sunday, 7 August 2011 15:46 (twelve years ago) link
o jesus dont tell me these things
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:41 (twelve years ago) link
srsly :(
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:43 (twelve years ago) link
five or six D.C.-looking types.
hahaha
― BJ O (Lamp), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:44 (twelve years ago) link
jews
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Thursday, 9 February 2012 01:12 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/21/arts/music/paul-simon-with-the-jazz-at-lincoln-center-orchestra.html?_r=1
This sounds like it was an interesting gig
excerpt:
By JON PARELESPublished: April 20, 2012 Transformations, extrapolations and a few collisions were on the program when Paul Simon performed with the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra on Thursday night at the Rose Theater, part of a three-night fund-raising series. (With tickets costing hundreds of dollars, perhaps it was no coincidence that the first words Mr. Simon sang were “She’s a rich girl,” from “Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes.”)
Mr. Simon and Wynton Marsalis performed and brought their bands together for a concert of Simon songs at Jazz at Lincoln Center. Mr. Simon, not usually one to cede control of his music, brought his own band to perform side by side with the Lincoln Center big band led by Wynton Marsalis. Mr. Marsalis noted that Mr. Simon was playing (and paying his band for) “three concerts for absolutely no money.”
It was all about arrangements, old and new: easing in and out of Mr. Simon’s usual band versions or completely revamping the songs. In the course of the night, the Lincoln Center band became a tag team, a beefed-up horn section, a new perspective and, now and then, a fifth wheel. As Mr. Simon sang, he breezed through the alterations to songs he has been singing for decades, toying with the timing of familiar lines to keep them conversational and immediate.
The program didn’t focus on the Simon songs closest to jazz; it didn’t include, for instance, the chromatic labyrinth of “Still Crazy After All These Years.” Instead it favored his folky and rock-tinged repertory, his three-chord marvels. Nearly all of the new arrangements were by the orchestra members, and they had a hard act to follow: Mr. Simon’s meticulous originals, with their ingenious cultural hybrids and ever nimble rhythms. His music is tightly wound, and within it are hints and implications that the big-band arrangements could pick up, and did.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 14:30 (eleven years ago) link
Guessing this event was too pricey for most NY ilmers (or they think Paul Simon is so overrated)
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 15:58 (eleven years ago) link
i'm sorry but wynton marsalis is so overrated
― Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 15:59 (eleven years ago) link
agree
― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 17:27 (eleven years ago) link
i watced the bbc under african skies docu and it was dope as hell
― lag∞n, Monday, 27 August 2012 01:40 (eleven years ago) link
Thread of missing Alamac
― buzza, Monday, 27 August 2012 02:24 (eleven years ago) link