DEM not gonna CON dis NATION: Rolling UK politics in the short-lived post-Murdoch era

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (5613 of them)

i'm not watching the uk news at the moment, so this could be bollocks but my impression from reading the papers is this riot would have happened if the shooting was in 2008 or 1997 or whenever. not true?

no-one has enough facts yet imho. it's not like life on a tottenham estate was rosy in either of those years. but i would maybe venture that the police have become progressive more aggressive and insensitive over time. but so far the only voices i've heard have been from middle-class commentators.

sarahel hath no fury (history mayne), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

but so far the only voices i've heard have been from middle-class commentators.

Uh, just saw a minister from the local area giving not so much an interview as a tub-thumping sermon to a reporter, his voice getting louder as he went on, I think if I'd opened my window I might have heard his voice

R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

Friends and family of the shooting victim (shot by CO19 cops) went to protest peacefully at the station; they also hoped to 'get some answers'. Altercations began after a 16 year old girl who approached the police was truncheoned by an officer. In my opinion, there will always be flare-ups when police are seen to be violent and dismissive of ordinary people's concerns. Whether these incidents spiral out into actual riots depends on a huge set of circumstances, but the fear and insecurity we're all feeling at the moment must be exponentially worse for people who are poor and judged as worthless by leaders who condescend to them.

murdoch most foul (suzy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

that sounds plausible. its the clobbering a teenage girl part -- taking it at face-value -- that has the hallmark of the met.

i don't think it's wise to weigh in on the shooting/demand for answers part.

sarahel hath no fury (history mayne), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

hatred of the police is a universal constant so i think caek otm up there

Once Were Moderators (DG), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

^^^the shooting details I'm referencing come from reports published in the Guardian papers - the NE London local newspaper group, not the Grauniad - before last night's events.

murdoch most foul (suzy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

Perfect storm of poisonous factors I think. This could easily have happened under Labour's watch but I'm not sure the conditions were as ripe for something to ignite as they are right now.

Matt DC, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think this guardian piece was prescient and important http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/29/gang-violence-rises-as-councils-cut-youth-services

lex pretend, Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

my impression from reading the papers is this riot would have happened if the shooting was in 2008 or 1997 or whenever. not true?

have there not been similar police shootings in the past five years? i assumed that there would have been.

those facts at that point were still in the future (c sharp major), Sunday, 7 August 2011 13:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

The narrative has been that the guy was well respected on the estate and not normally associated with violence. How much of that is true, it's difficult to say, but it seems to have added something to the protests and subsequent rioting.

It's difficult to ignore the economic / social backdrop to the events, and they're likely to get worse over the next couple of years, but there's a danger in romanticising the period between 1997 and 2010. There were progressive steps forward in policing and, to a degree, in job creation, but the whole area has always been poverty-stricken and marginalised. As with 1985, if this is an expression of a broader anger, it's not one that started bubbling up when share prices started to fall.

Slice Me Nice (ShariVari), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

The narrative has been that the guy was well respected on the estate and not normally associated with violence.

also (according to tha intarnet) he was arrested then executed on the spot, a claim which i am sceptical of but wonder how widespread it is IRL

Once Were Moderators (DG), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

the zero books contingent is saying that, yes. seems murky as hell to me, which is exactly why it's best to wait for some kind of more or less thorough report... but the same dudes are also saying that you would never be able to trust an official report. i half-agree, but it does leave you in the position of taking sides without having a fucking clue what you're talking about.

sarahel hath no fury (history mayne), Sunday, 7 August 2011 14:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

RT @GatezArtist: The Enfield loot is a #EpicFail looool man are getting nicked and planking on to of the police cars with handcuffs on

James Mitchell, Sunday, 7 August 2011 15:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

Presumably it's not controversial that riots tend to be about more than their immediate trigger? I mean, if this shooting had happened a couple of years ago perhaps nothing would have happened, but added to cuts and youth unemployment it becomes a trigger. I don't know how you would go about proving this though.

textbook blows on the head (dowd), Sunday, 7 August 2011 16:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

7.35pm: Initial ballistics tests on the bullet that lodged in a police officer's radio when Mark Duggan died on Thursday night show it was a police issue bullet, the Guardian understands.

ruh-roh

sarahel hath no fury (history mayne), Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

Perspective from a local teacher here.

Matt DC, Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dum Dum bullets - so named because they were used in the Bengal mutiny of 1857.

murdoch most foul (suzy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh my goodness. So she refuses to draw conclusions about the police murdering someone until there is an inquiry, but somehow she manages to know, without speaking to any of them, without even leaving her house, presumably by ESP, that the rioters were entirely "greedy" and "lazy" and not at all "angry."

I feel sorry for her students, to be taught by someone who doesn't seem able to grasp that someone might have direct experience of institutionalised racism without knowing the actual term.

Someone is dead, and her reaction is basically "oh noes, my property values!" Not much sympathy TBH.

Aphex Twin … in my vagina? (Karen D. Tregaskin), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

heh dumdum bullets are called that cos they were invented at a place called Dum Dum (long after the mutiny)

'police issue' is a bit vague

Once Were Moderators (DG), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dum Dum is right by Kolkata airport! A friend of mine used to spend summers visiting grandparents there.

murdoch most foul (suzy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 19:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also, reading the comments on the Graunblog (I know...) it's ironilol to see the green ink brigade make too much of the text from Duggan to his partner that mentioned he was being 'tailed by Feds'. Apparently use of this jargon makes one a hardened criminal. Apparently these people live in ignorance of widespread young/urban London slang terms.

murdoch most foul (suzy), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm trying to work out what's going on in Brixton right now, it seems to be mostly smoke and rumours.

There was something earlier about trouble kicking off at the festival (retracted a few minutes later by the same tweeter) but there have been way more sirens than usual screaming up over the hill. Most people just say there's a huge police presence but little else.

Then some joker decided it would be hilarious to post a picture of a burned-out H&M from Wood Green or Enfield or somewhere, and claim it was Brixton H&M and since then there's been nothing but people freaking out, and other people saying it was a mistagged picture and nothing is going on in Brixton, except one arrest at the festival. Someone even posted a picture of themselves standing in the middle of a (deserted) Coldharbour Lane, saying "does this look like a riot?" I suppose this is the problem with social media, that it can spread on the ground reports really quickly, but it can also spread lies and misinformation so quickly.

The irony is, of course, that Morrissey is playing the Brixton Academy tonight. If there's one person one would really *love* to see get caught in a massive 80s style riot... no, I can't even think it, it would just be tempting fate. I'm not even going to joke.

Aphex Twin … in my vagina? (Karen D. Tregaskin), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ha! In fact, Coldharbour Lane is actually closed off for a street party after the festival. Didn't stop the helicopters roaring overhead.

Aphex Twin … in my vagina? (Karen D. Tregaskin), Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh my goodness. So she refuses to draw conclusions about the police murdering someone until there is an inquiry, but somehow she manages to know, without speaking to any of them, without even leaving her house, presumably by ESP, that the rioters were entirely "greedy" and "lazy" and not at all "angry."... Someone is dead, and her reaction is basically "oh noes, my property values!" Not much sympathy TBH.

I don't think she's saying that though? She's presenting polarised opinions that surely exist. But yeah there's a weird lack of empathy there - an acknowledgement that some of her young black pupils will be hassled by the police and at the same time playing that down or outright dismissing it. Mutual lack of trust between police and kids on the street is poisonous as hell but it's not as if the police are innocent in all that.

The other strand of the post is more cogent I think - there'll be local, working class people will have lost their jobs as a result of this. Not saying that's more important than someone being shot (and really not wise to speculate on that, we don't know anything), riots damage the community or communities in the area even if the rage is directed elsewhere (at the police, largely).

Matt DC, Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://twitpic.com/62lw0t

nakhchivan, Sunday, 7 August 2011 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

so it's kicked off in enfield now?

lex pretend, Sunday, 7 August 2011 21:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

Amid all this, Boris is staying on holiday.

Matt DC, Sunday, 7 August 2011 21:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

as is d-cam, who just flew his private tennis coach out to italy

lex pretend, Sunday, 7 August 2011 21:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

there are pro tennis players who can't afford a travelling coach

lex pretend, Sunday, 7 August 2011 21:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

On one hand WTF BORIS YOUR CITY IS IN FLAMES, on the other, can you imagine anyone less likely to make a meaningful contribution?

Matt DC, Sunday, 7 August 2011 21:52 (2 years ago) Permalink


Just point your hose thingys over there, ok, super.

Ned Trifle X, Sunday, 7 August 2011 21:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol
xp

(oboe interlude) (schlump), Sunday, 7 August 2011 21:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

Waltham Cross now says twitter.

Ned Trifle X, Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

westfield too

lex pretend, Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Mate just texted me to tell me trouble in Walthamstow High St and to stay indoors. Haven't noticed any noise, maybe it's the other end? There's a bunch of people on the corner of my road and the High St, but that's not unusual

Operation Pooting (Colonel Poo), Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

Just saw that selbourne walk was being targeted in e17. Hearing plenty of sirens now at the top of cryPal

problem chimp (Porkpie), Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

TimGatt Tim Gatt
by OwenJones84
Disturbances in Walthamstow. Shop "smashed up" RT @tomwilliamsisme: Police blocking off area around Walthamstow Market twitpic.com/62n3r7
10 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

lex pretend, Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

Palace sirens have got to be something else surely?

Matt DC, Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

think a lot of this might be bullshit/wishful thinking

Once Were Moderators (DG), Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

just heard something is going on outside parliament http://twitpic.com/hindenburg.jpg

(oboe interlude) (schlump), Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

Matt, wind carries the sirens miles and to be honest I hear plenty most nights, just had a couple of bursts of lots though which is unusual. Right now though it's all v quiet, no plane traffic, no helicopters.

problem chimp (Porkpie), Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

Meanwhile David Cameron has gone back to a bar in Tuscany to sort out a misunderstanding about a tip.
http://news.sky.com/home/article/16045391

Ned Trifle X, Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

i guess he's thinking, may as well use this currency as it won't be worth a damn in a week

there are reasons why maybe the PM should not be on holiday right now, but the riot isn't the biggest

sarahel hath no fury (history mayne), Sunday, 7 August 2011 22:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://twitter.com/#!/shobz/status/100353100778438656

nakhchivan, Sunday, 7 August 2011 23:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

0017: Update via jc54322 on Twitter, Hemel Hempstead is not on fire.

Ned Trifle X, Monday, 8 August 2011 00:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

0208: Yes, the kissing couple picture was from Vancouver, thanks to all pointing it out via Twitter – my fault for not checking it first!

caek, Monday, 8 August 2011 01:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol http://twitpic.com/62pr98

nakhchivan, Monday, 8 August 2011 01:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://twitpic.com/62pt9a

nakhchivan, Monday, 8 August 2011 01:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://yfrog.com/j19kqz

nakhchivan, Monday, 8 August 2011 01:29 (2 years ago) Permalink


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.