Retromania: Pop culture's Addiction to its Own Past. (New Simon Reynolds book).

Or perhaps more...the desire for some kind of idea of progress, or disappointment at its perceived absence

xxpost
ound it odd he barely mentioned the smaller role music plays in the cultural landscape these days esp when im sure he knows it/cited sci fi writers view of our tech-drowned present, which should have set him off travelling down that path, one where music is everywhere but meaning less - youd think his kids approach to media and the web etc would have made this figure a bit more.

― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Wednesday, 27 July 2011 11:14 (3 hours ago) Bookmark

i think music is as immensely significant to people as it ever was

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 27 July 2011 13:55 (21 minutes ago) Bookmark

I'd be interested in hearing examples/reasons from both sides of this argument as to why/why not music is as significant to people.

It's certainly not as significant to the people around me as it used to - but that's mostly down to the fact my peers aren't teenagers any more and that I have little to go on as to modern teenagers' investments in listening.

Personally, I listen to music more than ever before and invest a great deal of time in it. But sometimes I wonder if I'll ever get as much out of music as I did out of, say, Parklife which was the first CD album I ever bought. These days I'd say 70% of music I come across gets a cursory 1-3 listens and then gets relegated to sitting around on my hard drive, maybe never to be heard again.

It's becoming increasingly difficult to imagine a record that could have the kind of cultural impact today as, e.g. Fear Of A Black Planet, Never Mind The Bollocks, Nevermind (to name three random examples) or any number of so-called "canon" albums. Sure you've got award winners, bestsellers, Coldplays and Adeles - but these aren't having any sort of profound effect on the public conscious at large, they're really just moving units in time for the next gout-du-jour. You've also got a huge amount of Pitchfork-friendly albums of varying quality.

One of the main differences, and this is mentioned by SReynolds, is that today we have access to so much new music, we arguably don't take as much time over a release as we once might. The temptation to skip and shuffle around our HDs and YouTubes is so incredibly strong. So while I was technically listening to less music in the '90s, I was listening to the same albums a lot more deeply.

Find the argument that "there is too much music now therefore we pay less attention to each release" really confusing

I never gave more time to individual releases in the past than I do know.....I missed out on stuff then also.

Main difference is, I hear better music now and play it more often

Also - I was reading an interview with King Creosote the other day where he said:

On one hand a genius from the modern age can come along and make something that sounds as good as Diamond Mine, but in general I find it a real drag and best avoided whenever possible. If technology results in a machine that drops one back into a pre-technological era, than I’m all for it. I’d punch 1974 into the dial and would probably expire in time for the millenium celebrations.

Retromania, as far as I've read, might berate this kind of attitude - but is it necessarily a bad or unhealthy position to hold?

post - seriously? are you saying you listen to the same amount of music now as you did in the pre-MP3 era? And that you honestly listen to it with the same (for want of a better word) care as you did then?

I know I'm much more likely to listen to an album if I buy it on CD than if I were to download it off D3m0noid or whatever. It's just a psychological thing of having bought a product with packaging and a disc I have to put into a machine.

That isn't what i said

what i said was the amount of time i would give to a release (ie before deciding whether to buy it)

very sorry, not sure i understand that either... ?

the smaller role music plays in the cultural landscape these days

Titchy have you, like, looked at the news at all this week?

If i went into a record shop in the past I wouldn't give any single i listened to about as long as i would today off a youtube or mp3

sorry i mean i WOULD give them about the same amount of chance

I listen to each track probably more times since getting an mp3 player also

the smaller role music plays in the cultural landscape these days

Titchy have you, like, looked at the news at all this week?

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 27 July 2011 14:50 (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Could be argued that the repercussions of Winehouse's death are largely a product of the cult of celebrity than investment in music, but good point all the same.

i get the impression that dog latin is way too invested in his flimsy, simplistic and blinkered argument because it'd make him feel better about the fact that it applis to HIM, individually, but i wish he'd stop speaking on behalf of "us" or "society" or "everyone"

people need to really think before they ever use the first person plural

The mechanics of being able to fit music around your daily routine (especially on the move) are easier and more convenient than they've ever been as well. I'd say the average amount of time people spend listening to music has gone up since the 90s.

That said I remember buying a lot of stuff blind in the mid-90s, stuff I didn't immediately like and because I'd paid £15 of my limited cash for it would play it again and again trying to get into it. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Not sure I expend that level of effort any more, but then again that's as much a question of economics as cost - I have more cash now and even without free music a single record would feel like less of an investment. But I hear more good stuff now.

Agree with lex - and I don't want to state my position as either typical or unusual

OMG you have got to be kidding me. I have worked at a computer nearly my entire adult life...started out with a walkman, graduated to Discman, then early internet radio.

I have never been more excited about music than the present. I have waited my whole life to listen to heaps of obscure dance tracks all day!! Albums, schmalbums. I feel as if I am going to pay for this in the afterworld.

Not everyone has a job where they get to have music on in their office, though.

i get the impression that dog latin is way too invested in his flimsy, simplistic and blinkered argument because it'd make him feel better about the fact that it applis to HIM, individually, but i wish he'd stop speaking on behalf of "us" or "society" or "everyone"

people need to really think before they ever use the first person plural

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 27 July 2011 14:57 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

That's funny, I don't remember having argued about, for or against anything in this thread? Just commenting.

mdc otm about both being able to listen to music more now and "trying" to get into albums, but i don't feel as though i'm closed off to slow burners or growers these days, they still happen.

when a great album or single hoves into view i get as obsessive about playing it on loop 904387343473 times as i ever did, eg my last.fm stats for beyonce's latest

Mount Cleaners experience is analogous to mine - I also am unable to listen in the office (much)

Even a cursory glance at last.fm shows others have this experience although I forget to turn it on

It's becoming increasingly difficult to imagine a record that could have the kind of cultural impact today as, e.g. Fear Of A Black Planet, Never Mind The Bollocks, Nevermind (to name three random examples) or any number of so-called "canon" albums. Sure you've got award winners, bestsellers, Coldplays and Adeles - but these aren't having any sort of profound effect on the public conscious at large, they're really just moving units in time for the next gout-du-jour

looks like an argument to me dog latin, a position you've staked out

i totally understand if you want to distance yourself from it though, it's not a very good one

I do listen to much fewer albums....almost no recent albums although lots of older albums and compilations

Fear Of A Black Planet, Never Mind The Bollocks, Nevermind

prefer music to have no cultural impact

http://www.last.fm/user/lexpretend/library/music/Beyonc%C3%A9/_/countdown

^^cursory listens, not spending as much time on or getting as much out of a recent track as i used to when i was a teenager

oh wait

I'm 36 and have spent more money on music in the last two years than ever, and also spent less money, thanks to mp3's and downloads, thanks to which I think I'm a better critic: it's so much easier to be discerning when I'm continually immersed in the past and present of music.

also i can't play it right now cuz i'm in an office but rest assured it's playing over and over in my head

me and my BOOF and my BOOF BOOF RIDIN
all up in that BLACK with his CHICK right BESIDE HIM

Looking at my last.fm shows much in the way of multiple plays of new (and new to me) music though most of my plays aren't scrobbled

Last.fm stats of yourself (and others) could 'prove' this argument in any direction depending on who you are - but my own stats show a high degree of multiple plays of (mainly) new (and new to me) music (when i remember to actually turn it on anyway)

meant to only have the second line there not the first

I'm 36 and have spent more money on music in the last two years than ever, and also spent less money, thanks to mp3's and downloads, thanks to which I think I'm a better critic: it's so much easier to be discerning when I'm continually immersed in the past and present of music.

Interesting take -- at 40, I'm...similar, but not exactly in the same boat. In essence my music purchasing goes three ways at this point:

1) The very occasional online purchase, often motivated by someone getting me a gift card for iTunes or the like.
2) Scrounging through the CD dollar bins at Amoeba, which increasingly turn up all sorts of old *and* new releases all over the place (along with parallel dollar or even one cent purchasing via Amazon Marketplace)
3) Purchases towards the kind of microlabels that Simon talks about in the book, though this has been very scattershot this year due to my moving expenses and other factors.

All this is of course complemented by the wide range of promo material I have access to due to being a writer, for which I'm grateful. Overall I'd say my actual purchasing is certainly less than it was but the sheer *amount* of music I deal with is vast.

prefer music to have no cultural impact

Weird thing to say. Take it or leave it, fine, but to actively prefer no wider cultural ripples at all?

In general, the question "is music more or less than or about as important as it was before" is really a question about how we as a culture portray the importance of music in the stories we tell ourselves about the world, and has little or anything to do with actual people actually experiencing music.

For a long time music derived a good deal of its perceived importance from the fact that it was a convenient stand-in for youth culture generally. Explaining what bands young people were into was a shorthand for explaining the many and varying codes, allegiances, alliances, habits, languages and lies of young people, many of which observers were not in a position to identify let alone understand.

Now that more parts of youth culture are reported on and taken seriously, this microcosm approach to the kids becomes less necessary - girls screaming when they see the beatles isn't the only truth of girls we're in a position to tell, let alone the only truth worth telling.

prefer music to have no cultural impact

Weird thing to say. Take it or leave it, fine, but to actively prefer no wider cultural ripples at all?

― Strictly vote-splitting (DL), Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:20 PM

was kind of referring to the albums Dog Latin mentioned, none of which I could ever imagine listening to...but....in general actually kind of yes i do prefer (I don't have a valid explanation, it just is)

I still buy CDs, but to me it is like buying a book on a topic, a hard copy of something for archival purposes. I don't hate them, it's just that the cult of the CD kind of bothers me. I like the aesthetics of shuffle play, it isn't new at all, it takes me back to the days when I got most of my music from the radio.

I'm not sure there's such thing as music with no cultural impact, even the most obscure music has some kind of cumulative impact.

80 years ago the arrival of the object (canned music) meant we were going to value music less and now the departure of the object means we are going to value music less.

I'm not sure there's such thing as music with no cultural impact, even the most obscure music has some kind of cumulative impact.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:41 PM

What I mean is I don't understand the desire for music to mean something (more) or have some kind of (ok, if you like, larger) cultural impact

xxxposts

It's becoming increasingly difficult to imagine a record that could have the kind of cultural impact today as, e.g. Fear Of A Black Planet, Never Mind The Bollocks, Nevermind (to name three random examples) or any number of so-called "canon" albums. Sure you've got award winners, bestsellers, Coldplays and Adeles - but these aren't having any sort of profound effect on the public conscious at large, they're really just moving units in time for the next gout-du-jour

looks like an argument to me dog latin, a position you've staked out

i totally understand if you want to distance yourself from it though, it's not a very good one

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 27 July 2011 14:04 (8 minutes ago)

Again, examples. I'm happy to change my mind about this one, but tell me - exactly what is coming out right now that is likely to have the same dramatic and cross-cultural impact as such (admittedly plucked from the air) examples above? I'm not saying these albums are better or more worthy than what is coming out today - there's loads of great music coming out that thrashes the shit out of these records (I don't really care that much for any of them, save maybe Nevermind but that's irrelevant).
Take NMTB - that's a record that's seen as a cultural, not to mention historically significant masthead. Replace all the words on the front cover with symbols and I believe a significant number of people would still recognise it. Same with the "swimming baby" on Nevermind. The Grundy interview gets parodied in comedy shows - NMTB even has a panel show named after it. 30+ years down the line, it's not so much an album any more as a meme or icon that's recognised even by those who haven't heard a note from the Sex Pistols.
I'm not saying that this kind of thing is impossible these days, but it seems less likely now that certain values like music tribalism are diminishing among fans. At the same time, there's much more out there for people to discover. So rather than all the kids at school rushing out to buy, say, the same Smiths* album and then pouring over it together the next day, it's more likely they'll be carving out individual, possibly more diverse, niches for themselves via the internet - downloading up to twelve albums in a week, surfing through YouTube vids etc. So you're simply not going to get this kind of dramatic hivemindy fanaticism as you once might.
Perhaps it's fairer to say that people aren't any more or less invested in music than they once were - they just treat it differently. As Matt DC said - if you download an album off a P2P and it's not what you'd hoped, you're less likely to give it as much time as if you'd taken a chance on a CD in a shop. We now have this wide musical tapas to choose from, so if you don't like boiled beef and carrots, you can pick and choose.

*I'm using lex-bait examples on purpose here btw.

What 'cult of the CD'? I'm not sure such a thing exists, does it?

Prefer records to have no covers couldn't give a shit about cover art and CDs are vile

FWIW - My listening is restricted by time these days more than anything else. My office is music-free, so I get 30 minutes in the morning, maybe a few at lunch and 30 minutes back. Then I'm kind of lucky if I get a minute to listen to music at home. I'm actually surprised I get to listen to anything at all.

All the things Dog Latin mentioned are gone I'm glad are gone

exactly what is coming out right now that is likely to have the same dramatic and cross-cultural impact as such (admittedly plucked from the air) examples above?

why does this matter?

by the way, one of the irritations provoked by the GaGa hype a couple of months ago was the number of smart critics who praised the album as if it represented a return to the dramatic cross-cultural megasellers of their youth. That era is gone! Move on!

Because it's nice to see Korean prisoners dance to Thriller on YouTube.

I'm happy to change my mind about this one, but tell me - exactly what is coming out right now that is likely to have the same dramatic and cross-cultural impact as such (admittedly plucked from the air) examples above?

Fear of a Black Planet and Nevermind had no no dramatic or cross-cultural impact at the time. People who cared cared, otherwise these things build over time. The Adele album now is a bigger deal than either of those were at the time.

30+ years down the line, it's not so much an album any more as a meme or icon that's recognised even by those who haven't heard a note from the Sex Pistols.

Pretty sure a straw poll of the average bus queue would prove this to be false.

I'm not saying that this kind of thing is impossible these days, but it seems less likely now that certain values like music tribalism are diminishing among fans.

On what basis? Most listeners weren't particularly tribalistic even in the 80s and 90s.

So rather than all the kids at school rushing out to buy, say, the same Smiths* album and then pouring over it together the next day

This never happened.

it's more likely they'll be carving out individual, possibly more diverse, niches for themselves via the internet - downloading up to twelve albums in a week, surfing through YouTube vids etc. So you're simply not going to get this kind of dramatic hivemindy fanaticism as you once might.

Because it never existed in the first place.

Fear of a Black Planet and Nevermind had no no dramatic or cross-cultural impact at the time.

Sorry Matt, but that's nonsense.

What I mean is, I want good music and a broader variety of music to be available to more people, not just people with $200 a month to blow on CDs.

I am not sure what tribalism is, it seems like a lot of people I have known for a long time consume along the same lines they did twenty or thirty years ago. Which is good or really, really bad, depending on how open-minded they were to begin with.

Nevermind had no no dramatic or cross-cultural impact at the time

i was about 9/10 when this came out and i remember lots of people talking about it at that point, i think nevermind prob had a pretty huge cultural impact. smells like teen spirit was huge.

not read simon's book but i largely agree with the thesis, especially as regards modern pop, the stuff in the charts currently is only "new" in the sense that the idea of being able to forcibly meld so many pre-existing genres together in one song is quite "new".

Fear of a Black Planet and Nevermind had no no dramatic or cross-cultural impact at the time. People who cared cared, otherwise these things build over time. The Adele album now is a bigger deal than either of those were at the time.

and Paula Abdul, Bryan Adams, and MC Hammer were bigger than all of them put together.

post - you are a strange fellow, but power to you, and I can imagine more and more people agreeing with you. Unless there's some alternate technological shift in the future, I can imagine generations growing up to think of cover art as a bizarre antiquated concept.

I was so excited about an album I heard the other day, I wanted to give a copy to everyone I knew. A few years ago I'd have maybe burnt or taped it and given it to friends or work colleagues, but this time I though 'no - that's a weird thing to do when they could easily go on Spotify and listen to it that way'. I don't make mix CDs for people either - once a prime bonding method for me at aleast.

It's not entirely nonsense, I'm bluntening the argument a bit but Doglatin is talking about these records as if they immediately attained the sort of canonical significance we can see at a distance of 20-odd years, and wondering why he can't see that in the albums of today.