"Hipster" as pejorative.

I don't think there's any correlation with being "cool" and being a "hipster".

Does discussing the definition of hipster qualify you as one? Not me, I'm here for scholarly purposes only.

What do people who are overly populist about having fun do for fun?

I don't know if you're hip or not, Edd, but you're definitely OTM.

Digable Planets used it positively as recently as 1993.

the word "hipicat" means something relevant in wolof: sadly i forget what

Dear Cecil:

What is the origin of the expression "hip hip hurrah"? According to one book I've read, it derives from an abbreviation of the Latin Hierusylema Est Perdita, "Jerusalem is destroyed." Apparently, medieval antisemites yelled "Hep! Hep!" as they exiled or executed innocent Jews. Can this be true? Can modern expressions such as hip, hipster, hippie, and hip-hop have such an odious etymology? Say it ain't so. --Name withheld, Washington, D.C.

Cecil replies:

You're not going to believe it, but there may be a germ of truth to this bizarre story.

Hip, hippie, hipster, and presumably hip-hop all derive from hep (meaning hip, of course), which dates from the turn of the century. There are several theories where hep came from:

(1) From the marching cadence "hep, two, three, four." If you were hep, you were in step with what was happening.

(2) From Joe Hep, who ran a low-life saloon in Chicago in the 1890s. (You may recall our discussion of another 1890s Chicago saloonkeeper who allegedly lent his name to the language, Mickey Finn. 1890s Chicago saloonkeepers were obviously quite a crew.) Hep liked to hover around the local hoods while they plotted their dirty deeds and fancied himself in the know. His name was originally used ironically to refer to someone who thought he knew what was going on but didn't. The ironic sense was soon lost and to get Joe to or to get hep to simply meant to get the straight dope, so to speak. (Source: D.W. Maurer, American Speech, 1941.)

(3) According to a 1914 slang dictionary, "from the name of a fabulous detective who operated in Cincinnati."

Of the three explanations, #1 is probably the least absurd. Hep (or hup or hip) has long been a multipurpose exclamation. In addition to being a cadence counter it was a traditional cry used by teamsters and herders to rouse animals. Hip was used to mean something on the order of "yo" or "hey" in the 18th century, and folks obviously thought it made a nice kickoff for hip hip hurrah.

Now we get to the bizarre part. Antisemitic rioters in Europe in the 19th century often shouted "Hep! Hep!" while on the prowl for Jews. Mob harrassment of Jews in Hamburg, Frankfurt, and other German cities in 1819, in fact, became known as the "Hep! Hep!" riots.

The origin of the expression is unclear. Some claim it derived from Hierusylema (also spelled Hierosolyma) Est Perdita. This theory obliges us to believe that a significant fraction of the rioters were students of Latin. Others say it came from the German habe, in this context apparently meaning "give." But some believe it was nothing more than the traditional herdsmen's cry, perhaps used because the rioters thought Jews ought to be rounded up like animals.

Does this mean we owe hip, hippie, hip hip hurrah and the rest to the howling of a bunch of Jew baiters? Not necessarily. Literary citations of hip hip hurrah in clearly innocent contexts date from 1818, the year before the "Hep! Hep!" riots. (I've seen nothing to convince me "Hep! Hep!" was used in the middle ages.) The most plausible explanation is that hip hip hurrah and "Hep! Hep!" simply have a common source, the herder's cry. Still, it's something to think about next time you're about to give someone three cheers.

(i got this from the net, not a speaker of Wolof)

Almost anyone who wasn't mainstream and 'square' was a hipster.

E.g. almost no-one was a "hipster" -- Mark is spot-on here, that such terms can only be developed by the subculture they describe (as a way of identifying and distinguishing themselves) but as of the 40s and 50s in America the standard arc was for that description to be revealed to the mainstream public ("here we have the freaks who describe themselves as X") and then become bulk-usage pejorative. (If the dynamics were anything like they are with such words now, one assumes the subculture quits using it as soon as it's revealed to the larger public -- it loses its purpose as a shibboleth and in lots of senses cops to what they'd probably consider the public's "misunderstanding" of them.)

E.g. in bulk usage from 1963-1976 what would you guess the ratio would be between "hippies" as positive or neutral description and "hippies" with an implied "damn dirty" beforehand?

I was called before a high school English department tribunal for using this word in a newspaper article my freshman year. They wanted to know where I had stolen it from.

Martin, I think you're on the right track, since I do recall reading about jazz musicians favorably talking about "hipsters," at least c. 1950. Although by then the word had a slightly patronizing cast, it seems, meaning someone who came from the outside but eagerly, admirably wanted in. (I.e. the white fans who would trek to Harlem clubs in those days.)

I think the word's lost most if not all of its racial implications right? Can we safely say that?

What do people who are overly populist about having fun do for fun?

I don't know if you're hip or not, Edd, but you're definitely OTM.

-- Stuart (gonzomoos...), February 10th, 2003

See, Stuart, I'm so unhip I don't even know what "OTM" means. On the money? Off the money? Off the mark? On the mountain (Hank Williams Jr. reference)? I always thought the word itself came from Wolof (sp?); that's what Robert Palmer (the late music writer, not the British singer who wears suits all the time) says in "Deep Blues."

I always was under the impression that "hipster" was not a compliment, it referred to a white-person jazz wannabe--who was that guy, Dean Benedetti, who wire-recorded all the Charlie Parker solos he could get but left out the others? Am I wrong here? Didn't the term come into general use in the bebop era?

(when i was in the shower today i flashed on that sun ra quote "blah blah these are the hopes and dreams of someone, don't be so hip" to his sneering band. i can't date it, tho.)

Where are the new mandarins?

lol at an ad for ads

Maybe the wrong thread for this, but wondering if anyone would like to weigh in on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nICH7QtFrU

This is a hipstery live comedy talent show that happens monthly at a theatre near where I live. Performing rabbits, kids impersonating Frank Sinatra etc. The person being interviewed is a very well-known person in the local community who is extremely marginalised and challenged. Harrassed and assaulted often. Arrested hundreds of times probably. Here (in my opinion) being patronised for being mentally ill. It's not the first time they've brought well-known people from the street on-stage for this and I find it disgusting.

The host was challenged about it on FB and said " I feel good about it though because I know that it was positive for her. She says that people have seen it on TV and approach her who wouldn't of before and are kinder to her because of it and that makes her feel more part of the community and less of an outsider. We are not solving mental illness, but it seems like this is a tiny tiny tiny step at least in the right direction."

Is he full of shit?

Mipster:

http://www.worldcrunch.com/mobile/#a:21178

Also, are we now reaching the phase where hipster (like Yuppie before it) isn't an insult as much as a warm joke?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/31/opinion/sunday/hipsters-broke-my-gaydar.html

oh dear

what. is. this. garbage.

Lesbians invented hipsters.

[...]

Lesbians were working on communal organic farms and freaking out about pesticides decades before the rest of the country.

[...]

Did plaid flannel come to mind? Work boots? Weirdly cut or especially shaggy hair? Maybe a bike?

[...]

If you’re a queer bristling at my generalizations of lesbians, tell me you don’t know any gays who look like what I’m describing. Look me in the eyes and tell me this, and if you can do it, I swear to you I will do something straight for a week: I’ll watch “The Bachelor” without irony, or wear Dockers, or buy a “Live, Laugh, Love” throw pillow and display it in my home.

this weirdo needs to go to west hollywood -- plenty of homosexuals that don't adhere to most of this

i saw someone wearing a knit hat on a day when the high was 100 F, which seemed like an odd choice, and when i told someone else about it, he replied that someone who would do that is obviously a terrible hipster and that normal sensible people like us would never do such a thing. i kind of frowned and said "i dunno, man" and didn't really try to argue the point, but now i want to know what this guy thinks a hipster is.

i got called a hipster the other day. was wearing a suit, toque.....they said "i like your hipster style'

I got myself a sort of obnoxious “edgy” haircut recently (buzzed on the sides with etched lines, faux-hawk on top, mullet in back), and I must say there’s something fun about sporting an annoying style like this. First, because I just felt like it. Second, because I’m realizing I really don’t care very much if some people think “douchebag hipster” or whatever. And third: my teenage kids think it’s “epic”. :-)

The fact is, I suspect I’m close enough to whatever many people think is a “hipster” that it’s not worth the effort to try to ensure I’m not mistaken for one.

Yeah ^

Steve Albini apparently had to relinquish his favored hipster haircut because it had been co-opted by alt-right.

i think some people dislike hipsters because they associate them with a certain lifestyle/way of thinking/gentrification - which can often be wrong.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/a-giving-tree-grows-in-brooklyn?fbclid=IwAR0EACpWbBNxJMnETavMz3mqFpLvY8l1V-CobcD330KWCSMnbGRaqDTPEkM

Seeing pieces like this published in 2020 is like finding one of those isolated Japanese island bunkers where the soldiers don't know the war is over.

anyone else see this thread in a serif font?

Yes

I am still in favor of a return to "hep cat" as an accolade.

seeing this in sans-serif, btw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPzt3A4Se_U

mcsweeneys reading man bristles at unflattering depiction of hipsters as 'so passe'

ftr it was in my facebook feed, I do NOT reed McSweeneys!

That Blossom song (OK a Dave Frishberg song sung by Blossom) is one of the best things ever, do click that triangle

Speaking of McSweeney's, Dave Eggers Trump novel sounds like it's the worst thing to ever be written.

Did you post the McS link without reading it?

Seeing pieces like this published in 2020 is like finding one of those isolated Japanese island bunkers where the soldiers don't know the war is over.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, January 26, 2020 10:17 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

good. let's wind the culture back to 2010 -- a moment of crisis but also incipient hope -- and just do this shit over again, better this time.