2008 Primaries Thread

yup! pretty stupid

lessee, apparently calling paul out for having his name on a bunch of racist and homophobic shit is suspect because it was done in TNR, which aired both the bell curve shit and is still a pro-war magazine on foreign policy stuff. perrin doesn't actually go to bat for the racist/homo-hating newsletters, just airs a crypto-zionist reason for TNR to not like it.

(while we're on the topic, dude says "When Israeli fighter jets were pounding Lebanon in 2006, it took weeks for leading libloggers to type the slightest negative word" uhhh none of the ones i was reading! but whatev)

then there's this:

I might be mistaken, but so far as I know, Ron Paul has not left the campaign trail to oversee the killing of a black man. Liberal hero Bill Clinton did in 1992, flying back to Arkansas from New Hampshire to witness Rickey Ray Rector take the lethal needle. (Since Clinton was our first black president, did that constitute black-on-black violence?) Clinton also expanded the police and prison state, in which a large number of African-Americans are trapped, and shredded the safety net for the poor, among whom reside many African-Americans. Does this make Bill Clinton a racist? Hush yo' mouf!

which is pretty rancid in itself. but also is built on a pretty stunning logical fallacy: that thinking ron paul's close association with racists and homophobes is bad is the same as thinking bill clinton's record on criminal justice is good

Democrat John Edwards on Sunday waded into a dispute between his rivals, criticizing comments by Hillary Rodham Clinton and her husband that some have considered disparaging to Barack Obama and black people generally.

"I must say I was troubled recently to see a suggestion that real change that came not through the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King but through a Washington politician. I fundamentally disagree with that," Edwards told more than 200 people gathered at a predominantly black Baptist church.

Sen. Hillary Clinton recently was quoted as saying King's dream of racial equality was realized only when President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, while Bill Clinton said Obama was telling a "fairy tale" about his opposition to the Iraq war.

Edwards did not name either of the Clintons in his speech, but turned the argument back on them.

"Those who believe that real change starts with Washington politicians have been in Washington too long and are living a fairy tale," he said.

I'll tell you this: I've studied various strands of American right wing political philosophy and beliefs, and have had many conversations with rightists of different temperaments, and when it comes to seriously defending First and Fourth Amendment rights (what remain, anyway), I'll stand with libertarians like Ron Paul. I may not agree with most of his beliefs, nor that of the anti-statist right overall, but I know that Paul and others like him aren't looking to tap my phone or break down my door in the middle of the night. Think the Branch Davidians were paranoid?

i mean, this has nothing to do with the substance of the 'liberal attack' on paul -- that he is probably a racist and homophobe and has an awful voting record on race and sex issues -- an argument that DP handwaves away by saying "I may not agree with most of his beliefs," while dismissing it because of where it was printed, on a totally unrelated issue (TNR's pro-israel editorial line)

this is like reading comprehension 101, the guy doesn't make any sense.

whew that's kind enough serious engagement with 'red state son'

man is edwards content with doing obama's dirty work or what?

kind OF enough

clinton surrogates getting NASTY

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/bet-chief-raps-obama-in-sc/

Jimmy Carter: See, I got solutions to all your problems—I got 'em right here in my big, hairy ballsack.

Obama gets McCaskill - http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/01/obama_slams_clintons_meet_appe.html?hpid=topnews

man is edwards content with doing obama's dirty work or what?

I don't think he has another good option. As I understand it, he wanted (pre-N.H.) to push HRC out of the race. Once it was down to him and Obama, he was going to attack Obama as soft and not a "fighter." It's not a bad strategy, at all, but you have to get HRC out first, and that's not happening (anytime soon, at least).

Giuliani: 'Hey I like God too, you know.'

Polls this far out aren't really worthwhile, but still, this one maybe suggests I shouldn't be so worried about an HRC/McCain matchup

Is Obama really going to go up against Robert L. Johnson? Seriously? Does he not realize that Robert L. Johnson is the only black billionaire widely respected by African Americans? Does Obama not know the Charlotte Bobcats are only of the few teams able to beat the powerhouse Boston Celtics?

Seriously, this primary season is fucking stupid. There has been nearly no policy debate. Polls, endorsements, scandal. Who fucking cares?

newsflash: elections are popularity contests

I gotta hand it to Rudy G for bragging to an evangelical church that he prays to Mary

This thread certainly wdn't like policy debate.

more Krugman on Obama's econ fumfering today:

The Obama campaign’s initial response to the latest wave of bad economic news was, I’m sorry to say, disreputable: Mr. Obama’s top economic adviser claimed that the long-term tax-cut plan the candidate announced months ago is just what we need to keep the slump from “morphing into a drastic decline in consumer spending.” Hmm: claiming that the candidate is all-seeing, and that a tax cut originally proposed for other reasons is also a recession-fighting measure — doesn’t that sound familiar?

Anyway, on Sunday Mr. Obama came out with a real stimulus plan. As was the case with his health care plan, which fell short of universal coverage, his stimulus proposal is similar to those of the other Democratic candidates, but tilted to the right.

For example, the Obama plan appears to contain none of the alternative energy initiatives that are in both the Edwards and Clinton proposals, and emphasizes across-the-board tax cuts over both aid to the hardest-hit families and help for state and local governments. I know that Mr. Obama’s supporters hate to hear this, but he really is less progressive than his rivals on matters of domestic policy.

oh morbs get off the high horse = the electorate doesn't like policy debate and the first recorded complaints about this are 5,000 years old

oh wow, "tilted to the right," how awful!

YEP

I don't see how you can pass some semblance of universal health care through Congress without "tilting" to the right.

when pundits become substantive experts on matters of the economy, i will eat my hat.

ditto pols

I don't think you can say Krugman doesn't know anything about economics, but wake me up when he knows anything about politics.

do we have to explain how government works to morbs?

you only seem to explain (sic) how elections work

Can we put you two on TV?

i don't think we're as telegenic as you, ned

No, I insist.

from left to right: gabbneb, Daniel, Esq., elmo, Soto.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/feedback/images/confirmation/crossfire.jpg

http://www.micropersuasion.com/Picture%201-31.jpg

nice of alfred to fall on the sword and be novak

TV's already too much fun, Ned.

Perrin re-explains things for andwhattards:

Of course, Paul is imperfect on the civil liberties front. His stances on immigration and abortion rights alone should make one wary. And his laissez-faire approach to economics would hand more power to corporations, given the present system. Thus, I don't view Paul as some kind of answer. Indeed, if the guy were ever elected to high office, I suspect that he'd either be weighed down by political/economic reality, which would negate most if not all of his plans, or he would crash ahead regardless, sending the system into chaos and shock. But this is all speculation. Ron Paul is not going to be president....

I support no one for president. Not. A. Soul. No matter who takes the wheel later this year, the ship will remain on the same destructive course for quite some time. Enjoy shuffleboard and bingo while you can, and try not to spill your Mai Tai on the deck.

http://dennisperrin.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-paulogies.html

no no no ;_;
not tucker carlson please

I support no one for president. Not. A. Soul.

I'm fucking innocent! You won't break me!

I tend to view the starry-eyed Clinbama fantasists as the innocents.

when pundits become substantive experts on matters of the economy, i will eat my hat.

-- elmo argonaut, Monday, 14 January 2008 14:27 (1 hour ago) Link

fyi, krugman teaches economics at princeton.

Yup. And I've put a few of his textbooks he's written on reserve for econ courses.

please post pics of hat eating

"And his laissez-faire approach to economics would hand more power to corporations, given the present system."

it seems to me lots of people have two ideas in their head at the same time which confuse what they think about economics, corporations and the state. 1) laissez-faire (or 'free-market') policies will increase the power of corporations and 2) corporations have too much power and influence in government. politicians and corporations purposely invite this kind of confusion to increase their power and wealth. of course Reagan style deregulation helps corporations - thats the point!

but there is a difference between what romney says he would do and what paul says he would do. there is a difference between crony capitalism and the free market (for one the first is prob inevitable and the second is largely theoretical).

Subject: Ophra's Friend

Who is Barack Obama?

Very interesting and something that should be considered in your
choice.

If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all
your contacts...this is very scary to think of what lies ahead of us
here in our own United States...better heed this and pray about it and share it.

We checked this out on "snopes.com". It is factual. Check for yourself.

Who is Barack Obama?

Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born
in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM
from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHEIST from
Wichita, Kansas.
Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
years old, his parents divorced. Hi s father returned to Kenya. His
mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.?
When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocate to Indonesia. Obama
attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a
Catholic school.

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is
quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also
attended Catholic school."

Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that
that he is not a radical.

Obama's introduction to Islam came via his fa ther, and t hat this
influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned
to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct
influence over his son's education.

Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school
in Jakarta.

Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim
terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world. Since
it is politically expedient to be a CH RISTIAN when seeking major
public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined
the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim
background. ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran.

Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor
will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands
over their hea rts, Obama t urns his back to the flag and slouches. We have seen this in untouched photos.

Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
candidacy.

The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside
out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the
President of the United States, one of their own!!!!

Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man leading
our country?...... NOT ME!!!

If Barack Hussein Obama stops asks you for directions, KEEP GOING.

andbnwhat

since obama is a secret radical muslim does that mean he will make all of us convert to muslim if he is elected?

"democracy" (ie, two white hick states)

who do you think edwards' base is??!!!

that was a forwarded email caught in the work spam filter. I deleted it like the Ophra would want.

Ophra Huzzah

I like Elmo's bowtie.

Durbin sticks up for Obama's anti-war record

Both events, clearly intended to tap into Clark County's large Hispanic population, stood in stark contrast to Mrs. Clinton's last visit to Nevada, when she gave a stump speech from a stage far from supporters in a nature preserve and then departed majestically whence she came.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/11/us/politics/11clinton.html