the Kommisariat's Kontinuing Kronicles: more right-wingery in the USA, 2k11-12

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did some up some 'halp with taxes' searches on the internet, and ran into the sovereign dudes, and then hired one

what did he pay with? a hog? goods and services?

j., Thursday, 30 June 2011 18:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

Pizza.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Thursday, 30 June 2011 19:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

does he trade pizzas to his customers?

j., Thursday, 30 June 2011 19:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

sign me up for this pizza based economic model

brownie, Thursday, 30 June 2011 19:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

That will be a 50-pizza registration fee, please.

you're in the club and the light hits your ass like pow (Laurel), Thursday, 30 June 2011 20:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

do you take calzones

brownie, Thursday, 30 June 2011 20:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

What are you, some kind of foreigner?

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 June 2011 20:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

From one of the first comments:

I've considered myself a Libertarian for many years, but have to say that I found their views a bit extreme. I didn't know that there were some branches of Libertarianism that were against government regulating food or medicine safety.

iow, I've been calling myself a libertarian because it sounds nice, but I have never taken the slightest effort to discover what "libertarian" might mean.

Aimless, Friday, 1 July 2011 18:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

when I was in high school, there was maybe a 15-minute window where I thought the concept of libertarianism was worth investigating; those 15 minutes ended when I realized the person I was discussing this with was a disenfranchised just-slightly-short-of-being-racist douche who considered the Civil Rights Act to be an overreach of government

DJP, Friday, 1 July 2011 18:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think that anyone who is an actual Libertarian has to think that! The rest are just enthralled with the romanticism of some ideas, imo

mh, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

whenever i take that "political compass" test (something i've been doing for what seems like decades now), i wind up deep in left/libertarian territory, between the little "dalai lama" and "nelson mandela" dots.

Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.69

this inclined me, once upon a time, to think that i might actually be a libertarian. at least until i found out what actual, real-world "libertarians" were all about. now i have no home. :(

And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Friday, 1 July 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

come on yall, there is such a thing as left libertarianism

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

these dudes are doing pretty good work on the subject

http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

I prefer to call that anarcho-communism, myself.

xposts, maybe

emil.y, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also, anyone who like Nozick is not left-wing.

emil.y, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

*likes

emil.y, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

notice, if you actually read the thing, that the guy isn't uncritically embracing nozick

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was an honest to god registered libertarian in 1992 because my roommate told me that libertarians were pro-marijuana legalization and I was too high to look into it any further. I was with my other roommate when he registered to vote as a member of the "People's Pot Party." We were awesome.

phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Friday, 1 July 2011 19:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

and i've played the atomic microscope hairsplitting game for years, i'm not interested in whether its mutualism or anarcho-communism or left libertarianism or whatever: if it gets people working together to build a free society you can call it starbucksism for all i care. xp

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was an honest to god registered libertarian in 1992 because my roommate told me that libertarians were pro-marijuana legalization and I was too high to look into it any further. I was with my other roommate when he registered to vote as a member of the "People's Pot Party." We were awesome.

― phantoms from a world gone by speak again the immortal tale: (Jenny), Friday, July 1, 2011 3:17 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

<3

horseshoe, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

i just like the sound of anarcho-communism

g++ (gbx), Friday, 1 July 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

like communism but WAY MORE ANARCHY

j., Friday, 1 July 2011 19:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

like communism, but way more spiders

jackie tretorn (elmo argonaut), Friday, 1 July 2011 19:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh wait

jackie tretorn (elmo argonaut), Friday, 1 July 2011 19:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp Except the people now calling themselves anarchists are some pretty huge douchebags, tbh.

Aimless, Friday, 1 July 2011 19:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

actually that sounds even better.

j., Friday, 1 July 2011 19:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp Except the people now calling themselves anarchists are some pretty huge douchebags, tbh.

OTM, and so are most of the people calling themselves "communists," which makes it real damn hard to do what a HOOS is talking abt, working together to build a free society.

main problem, tbph, is that i don't really believe in "free society." it sounds like an oxymoron to me. we sacrifice some of the freedom we might have as individuals whenever we enter social space (i.e. the presence of other human beings). and that's cool, that loss of freedom is, or at least can be, a good thing. it allows us to coexist. furthermore, to exist in social relations is to exist in a social matrix or organization, and as conflicts arise within social organizations, an implied state emerges. power exists in any social relation, and power simply will have its way. the recognition and formalization of existing power relations = the state. again, this is inevitable and should be seen as neither a good nor a bad thing.

moreover, i believe in inequity. not saying that i believe it exists (it does, of course), but that i believe in it, deeply. i take inequality to be the fundamental condition of all life. i do not oppose it or wish i could wish it away, i simply want to manage it in pursuit of what i see as the best possible outcomes.

in short, i see the essential qualities of human social organization not as extensions of philosophies, paradigms we might alter simply by changing our points of view, but as inescapable reflections of the fact that we are living organisms. the most basic truths are these: that power exist, that power will have its way, and that power is inherently inequitable. i do not oppose any of this. all sane and sensible political philosophy must accept these principles without objection and work out from there.

And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Friday, 1 July 2011 19:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

apologies if this has been posted:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2011/06/america-right-huckabee-libertarian-evangelical-cruise/

lots o wtf in this, but the fact that this dipshit can manage to do this in the same interview is... something

“Back at a Republican primary debate in 2007, the candidates were asked to discuss the economy. They each praised 30 months of uninterrupted growth under George W Bush. Then came Huckabee’s turn. “I had the audacity to say that if you’re sitting in the director’s office, I guess the economy is doing swimmingly well. But if you go out there and talk to the people who drive cabs, and lift luggage, and haul these big heavy trays to the banquet halls where the nice people come and dine, they’re going to tell you the economy’s not doing real well for them. To this day I’m looked at as the guy who misspoke on the economy.”

“I’d repeal the 16th Amendment,” Huckabee tells me. That’s the one that created the income tax in 1913. Originally imposed only on wealthy citizens, it was the cornerstone of the effort to ensure that the US didn’t develop a European-style hereditary aristocracy. It’s a classic progressive tax: the more you earn, the more you pay. Huckabee would also eliminate the estate, gift, and capital gains tax; privatise Medicare through a voucher system.

je suis marxiste - tendence Groucho (will), Friday, 1 July 2011 20:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

i've never thought of Huck as particularly stupid, but i really don't know what else can you make of it

je suis marxiste - tendence Groucho (will), Friday, 1 July 2011 20:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

you can make of it

je suis marxiste - tendence Groucho (will), Friday, 1 July 2011 20:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

when I was in high school, there was maybe a 15-minute window where I thought the concept of libertarianism was worth investigating

haha, yes

for me it was when I was driving a delivery van and since I had no hope of ever receiving a decent raise (I think I made a dollar more an hour after four years) I figured the libertarians would abolish taxes and I could afford to buy a Gibson SG.

brownie, Friday, 1 July 2011 20:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

long story short my entire house is now built entirely out of Gibosn SG's

brownie, Friday, 1 July 2011 20:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

man, some of the writing on that "bleeding heart libertarians" blog is bugging the hell out of me:

So why might libertarians, and bleeding heart ones at that, argue that markets should be free of government regulations?

The short answer, which I will assert here and defend below, is that whatever the intent behind government regulation of markets, it almost always ends up working in the interest of the rich and powerful and does little to protect the interest of those with modest means and little access to power. If a commitment to social justice demands that we care first and foremost about the least well off among us, supporting government regulation may well violate that commitment.

this is unsupported, unsupportable bullshit. government regulation of markets, enterprise and trade has proved itself hugely beneficial to the poor and powerless over and over again. we can thank the action of governments for child labor laws; for the (perhaps grudging) recognition and support of labor & trade unions; for consumer & worker protection laws of various sorts; for the regulation of banks, brokerages and investment firms; for minimum wages, weekends and limited workweeks; etc.

all of these constitute "regulation" or limitation of the freedom of entities in the marketplace, and they're all good things, to the extent that they're designed well and applied thoughtfully.

And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Friday, 1 July 2011 20:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

it almost always ends up working in the interest of the rich and powerful and does little to protect the interest of those with modest means and little access to power

A free and unrestrained market would never do this though...

Telephoneface (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 1 July 2011 22:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

I can't answer that one for him, and I definitely won't pretend I've read, agree with, or am prepared to defend every contradictory word these dozen people have written, but these aren't are a bunch of hacks--they're intelligent guys trying to start a conversation that goes further than "you're a heartless moneybag hoarder" met with "you're a communist that wants to take my Bible." I do think it's interesting that in the long conversation sparked by the post you quoted, no one raised that particular point--they were mostly arguing from more arcane positions--but now that you've raised the point its absence does seem conspicuous. I'll raise it myself and keep track of the responses.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 1 July 2011 23:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp That seems to be central idiocy in the Libertarian talking points i have heard, like: oh well, Government agencies have been corrupted and bribed by big monied interests and are ineffective at protecting the rights of individuals, Might as well do away with the EPA then! rather then trying to you know fix it.

dsb, Friday, 1 July 2011 23:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

libertarians are generally good on social issues (tho many of them aren't -- viz a viz ron paul and wanting to repeal birthright citizenship, the civil rights act, etc.), which i think is usually what gets ppl into it in the first place. it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you. but believing the hardcore libertarian line on economic stuff involves buying into so many convoluted justifications for abolishing lots of things that seem self-evidently good (like giving the government the right to regulate food and medicine) that i think a lot of ppl just ignore it and stick to complaining about the government stealing their money.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, 1 July 2011 23:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.
it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.

g++ (gbx), Friday, 1 July 2011 23:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

i was trying to explain libertarianism to my buddy today and i wish i'd had that at my disposal

g++ (gbx), Friday, 1 July 2011 23:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's like being a liberal without having to give a shit about the fact that there are people poorer than you.

oh, it's kind of like what the Obama administration has become!

KARLOR CAN FUCK ANYTHING! AND HE WILL AND HAS!!! (Eisbaer), Saturday, 2 July 2011 01:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh, it's kind of like what the Obama administration has become!

― KARLOR CAN FUCK ANYTHING! AND HE WILL AND HAS!!! (Eisbaer), Saturday, July 2, 2011 1:17 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

without the liberal part...

Matt Armstrong, Saturday, 2 July 2011 02:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

would yall fucking stop

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 2 July 2011 05:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

love a HOOS, but i love a gubbamint too

And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Saturday, 2 July 2011 06:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

non-sequitor in the context of whatever discussion's going down in this thread right now (i'm not following along), but important in the context of the bigger picture of ilx right wing threads in 2011

ⓢⓤⓟⓘⓕⓨⓞⓤ©ⓐⓝⓡⓔⓐⓓⓣⓗⓘⓢ (markers), Monday, 4 July 2011 04:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

. . .

ⓢⓤⓟⓘⓕⓨⓞⓤ©ⓐⓝⓡⓔⓐⓓⓣⓗⓘⓢ (markers), Monday, 4 July 2011 04:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

all those moments will be lost in time

mookieproof, Monday, 4 July 2011 04:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

like bamans in the rain

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 4 July 2011 05:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

Michael Bay, CEO of Transformers (Phil D.), Tuesday, 5 July 2011 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

does that guy's shirt say "yup. i'm a racist" ?

40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 5 July 2011 17:06 (3 years ago) Permalink


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