Is this anti-semitism?

there's a line a little later where Moses describes himself as having "uncircumcised lips". could be a mistaken transposition of an epithet applied to Pharaoh but i love this unexplained mysteriousness.

i think actually not just halfway, but like had swallowed him on both ends in such a way as to leave just his own penis uncovered and that's how Tzipporah knew that the problem was circumcision related

reading that recently too, it is one of those deep dark strange moments of the bible.

xp
cool that clears it up.

or, more seriously, I am entirely intrigued - where's a midrash like that come from? How does the snake get involved?

I've always kinda wondered why circumcision became so popular in the US during the 20th century, while it was/is much rarer in Europe. Wikipedia says it was because of doctors promoted it as healthy, and because it was thought to stop boys from masturbating, but why didn't those same justifications apply in Continental Europe? And why was/is the practice still continued in the US, even though neither of those justifications is hardly relevant today? Is it only because parents didn't/don't want their kids to be different from the majority?

xp This particular story is from the Exodus Rabbah which was compiled around 12th century which was itself developed from various midrashic traditions (primarily Tanhuma iirc). The Tanhuma parts at least come from the amoraic generation (200 CE in Israelish). So it's probably from there. It may be an oral tradition that developed alongside the written tradition, or it may have been invented as a homiletic in 200 CE. Also look here for a fuller description (and some exegesis): http://books.google.com/books?id=nAfUF2_ClqgC&lpg=PA18&ots=nM-k4VWX_K&dq=haberman%20foreskin%20sacrifice&pg=PA23#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'm spitballing here bc I've never studied this particular midrash in depth but I'd guess the serpent/snake angle is related to Moses' staff turning into a snake since that's a huge motif for him. (Obv other snake references could be the healer staff + the Eden snake, but it strikes me as more likely that it'd be referring to Moses' personal experience with snakes.) Also there's the obvious phallic imagery, etc.

The Mark book I linked to, btw, claims that the snake is mirroring the Eve narrative. Eve was naive but Zipporah "immediately grasps life and death confronting her in one instant. She is fuly conscious of her position of power and responsibility at the nexus of her intersecting erotic connections with God, her son, and her lover." Also of note, the Talmud derives from this narrative (again IIRC, it's been years since I looked at this partic passage) that if a father does not circumcise his son, a mother become obligated in the commandment.

I don't really have much useful to say to this but reading this thread has made me realise that this is going to be a huge issue if I ever have a son :(

xp
thanks for the links & info Mordy, totally fascinating.

why didn't those same justifications apply in Continental Europe?

long honourable tradition of massive anti-Semitism

I don't think that fully answers it, anti-semitism wasn't that strong everywhere in Europe. (Also, there were anti-semites in the US too: did they leave their kids uncut?)

why didn't those same justifications apply in Continental Europe?

long honourable tradition of massive anti-Semitism

― aka best bum of the o_O's (Noodle Vague), Monday, June 6, 2011 4:03 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

lol was about to post more inflammatory version of this but i don't think it's true. i had never heard the 'anti-masturbation theory', daaaaamn.

If the idea of infant circumcision was to prevent masturbation in later life, I can tell you that the theory is not empirically sound.

As opposed to all the other early 1900s theories about sexuality?

the non-religious uses of circumcision seem to be more related to old school "hey here is this bit of the body that doesn't really do anything and sometimes it can get infected let's just chop it off eh?" just like appendix tonsils adenoids etc. prophylactic surgery just seems to have been more of a thing back in the day

Some early 1900s sexual theorists actually believed that sexual repression was bad for humans. Mainstream culture professed to be shocked, but were seceretly fascinated.

Mainstream culture professed to be shocked, but were seceretly fascinated. horny.

His first comic, released last summer, featured an evil Doctor Mutilation, who circumcised boys for medical, not religious, reasons.

"Nobody came out and complained about doctor bias," Hess said. There's "no difference" between portraying an evil doctor and an evil religious figure, he said.

fuck this douchebag

Is it only because parents didn't/don't want their kids to be different from the majority?

I've come across more than a few women who initially thought the idea of an uncircumsized penis was gross or weird.

Most women I've come across profess a fascination with it.

oh word?

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.

So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision

this always baffled and fascinated me too -- it's like a 'twin peaks' style dream interlude in the middle of an otherwise straightforward narrative.

even if you can figure out what's going on, here's the logic of the story:

god (i repeat: GOD) tries to kill somebody, and FAILS because someone performs a CIRCUMCISION.

god was a new hire back then. he used to fuck shit up all the time.

Love the Old Testament -- lots of weird, unexpected shit.

god, squeamish at sight of blood. Hence new testament departure more aimed at his strong points.

Yeah for reading pleasure/surprise per minute I vote Pentateuch over Epistles any day.

one good thing about not having a foreskin is your foreskin will never rupture and bleed during sex

god (i repeat: GOD) tries to kill somebody, and FAILS because someone performs a CIRCUMCISION.

there's also the jarring leap from the previous verses where God is all tasking up Moses with this important task.

GOD: Moses, get thee to Egpyt
Moses: Ok yo
GOD: Die motherfucker!

Oh god my brain merged abb and d's post into for reading pleasure/surprise per minute I vote Pentateuch over Epistles any day during sex

o_0

russell crowe weighs in: http://twitter.com/#!/russellcrowe/statuses/79006376482967552

looking forward to Russ's visits to every maternity hospital in the world to remind new parents that every baby is perfect

http://twitter.com/#!/russellcrowe/statuses/79016516829462528

Russell Crowe is barbaric and stupid

racist Australian idiot OTM

*coff* NZ idiot.

omg russell crowe's twitter is killing me right now, thank u max

oi m8. ur an idiot if u cut ur kid's pee-pee

*coff* NZ idiot.

oops. One of the few cases where kiwis might actually be glad to have australia steal the credit though, right?

Yeah, and also why we remind people the cockhead isnt aussie! :)

Mel Gibson is one of yours though, isn't he?

Sadly yes.

mel gibson was born in new york

was gonna say

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13957476

jeremy corbyn is crying :D

Marcus Brigstocke this week. "Oh wait you mean Jews *don't* drink children's blood? Maybe I should have done some basic research before spouting my mouth off"

Use your goy for sausage-meat,. lol@ Talmud Cookbook

Picking Persia over the Arab invasion, & making peace with Israeli politics is hard as a raisin in the desert.

Ultimately I pick the remnants of Qabala-descended Nazi psychology in European-American lineage as divided by the Capran school of Mystic-inspired science

in terms of Jews

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/telling_it_it_wasnt