Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

xp yeah i kept thinking it was somehow Alaya, the annoying one from Cold Blood (being the same actress) nm

we'd never seen Nurse Sontaran before either

again a same actor issue - i thought he was the one we saw Tennant whacking with a sledgehammer to save Martha & Mickey during the End Of Time final montage

I noticed he wasn't Mike From The Young Ones but couldn't remember if he was familiar or not. Anyway he cited his clone-group to make that one clear to semi-casual viewers

rong! it is TOTALLY EXCELLENT to have the Dr recruit old pals that we have never seen bcz they were from off-screen adventures

Yeah! And the season-opener did point out that the Doctor had been off travelling without Rory/Amy for about 2 years (or 200 if you're talking about the Doctor who died, but that's a different story)

Also, wouldn't the Doctor who was killed being Flesh contradict Moffatt's 'it wasn't a clone or a doppleganger' statement

Also, having recently seen Sean Pertwee in a couple of (admittedly not good) things, he looks so uncannily like his dad that surely, with a white wig, he could play the 3rd Doctor if they ever decide to have another multiple-doctors story

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02/pertwee_175x125.jpg
http://image1.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2008/226/6821181_121873692223.jpg

It's not really a get-out-of-jail-free card because there IS no jail in the scenario you were talking about (ie how River could be Amy and Rory's daughter when she preceeds them both in the story). It's perfectly logical within the universe that's being created.

The problem with timey-wimey is not that it's a get out of jail free card, or that it's as Aldo says a deus ex machina (it isn't). It's that everything becomes an intricate puzzle that there's evidence of the Doctor *already having solved* at the beginning of each episode.

I agree with you completely, and I wasn't clear when I made my point. Timey-wimey is most definitely the reason for this situation, but from a writing perspective there's a very, very fine line between (a) fiendishly planning an intricate web of relationships across time streams and releasing it slowly across 2–3 seasons of the show and (b) making it up as you go along and covering your tracks by saying 'ah well wibbly-wobbly'. I'm not saying that Moffat has indulged in (b) at all, but if at any point it transpires that Moffat did in fact make it all up on the fly (c.f. BAD WOLF) it'd be all too easy for him to play the wibbly card and feel confident that he got away with it.

the Victorian alien/

you fucking racist

― all cats are gay (sic), Monday, 6 June 2011 09:47 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

looooooove this

but we'd never seen her before - and it's likely that the Dr hadn't even had the adventure where he first met her yet, given his complete pretending to remember the circumstances

I thought that that was what gave her death its poignancy -- he runs with EVERYBODY, and it's all fun, but now the adventuring is starting to chew up the lives of all the people around the Doctor.

I really only liked the reveal, which was the only thing that resonated emotionally, because the rest of the story wasn't really paced as narrative, but as someone else said up-thread, as set pieces.

Also, I completely missed the Lizbian subtext???

least sub text ever

Main clue: The scene where the Silurian says something rude to her maid, then uses her EXTREMELY long and agile tongue to knock some dude out, then turns back tot he maid and says 'I Don't know why you put up with me!' and they pretty much waggle their eyebrows/scales at each other

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness.

― Peyton Flanders (Nicole), Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:48 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

This is, sadly, closer to the truth - from various accounts (many of which from his blog itself) he's not a well man. Most of his blogs tend to be angry tirades aimed at Moffat based on some silly falling out he had with SM after Moffat patted him firmly on the back in a pub once after buying him a pint (yes, really). Miles interpreted it as some threatening alpha male act and as never forgiven him. It's been joked about as "The Power Pat Of Doom" by a few ever since.

Wow. Stop with the tragic tales, I'm not going to be able to enjoy laughing at his ramblings now.

Your search - "The Power Pat Of Doom" - did not match any documents
;_;

Ah - some background here (DANGER: LIVEJOURNAL LINK)

http://doctorwho.livejournal.com/3624711.html

Oh, Miles did write The Book of the World (I've read it, it's crap), there just isn't any obvious proof that he wrote it before finding out that Moffat was doing a Space Library story. I don't personally disbelieve Miles about that, nor do I think it is the basis for his issues with Moffat. The last I heard Miles was claiming it was about Moffat power patting him and contributing to his alcoholism. Miles's side of the story, as retold by Charles Daniels at DWF:

Then, one day, the Moffat was nice to me. He came up and patted me on a shoulder, smiled, and offered to buy me a drink. What the Moffat didn't know was that I was keen follower of David Attenborough. Sure, some of my friends..well, Chris... have tried to convince me that Moffat was trying to be nice. BUT, Chris obviously isn't aware of what is really going on. David Attenborough would never lie to me. The Moffat was trying to make me part of his ape clan. He would be the master ape, and I would be the little monkey who collected all the berries and was then beaten until I relented and gave them away. This is how ape society works. This is why the Moffat was trying to hand me the banana of shame. The Moffat saw me and thought "Ahh, here is the berry picker of the tribe! I will not stoop to berry picker duties!"

Moffat's side of the story:

Really and truly it's not the criticism - I get way worse, way more publicly. It's the (untrue) personal stuff about me, 'validated' by his creepy pretense that we're Mates Down The Boozer together. Sometimes we're in the same pub - he edges closer, I edge away.

poor guy.

A C&P of the original blog post here: http://www.journalfen.net/users/avendya/672.html

It's a great shame - he's clearly a highly intelligent guy, but troubled :(

This is why the Moffat was trying to hand me the banana of shame.

Guy who comes up with lines like this deserves an episode imo, nuts or not.

(to write an episode that is, not to have one)

Think the last three paras of that blog post is proof that Lawrence is the inspiration for the time babby.

Comments

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comments otm

Can we have the condensed version? If ever there were links I wish NOT to follow...

"I managed to make Steven Moffat my bitch, just the once, by making the same moves that a gorilla might make while attempting to take control of the flange"

Also, the bit with 'thin-fat gay married Anglican marines' was such an RTD nudge; irl lol.

Can we have the condensed version? If ever there were links I wish NOT to follow...

Basically, Larry is Bernard Butler to Moffat's Brett Anderson, or something...

Always liked his week-by-week commentary (which he'd then take down before the following week iirc?) - at best intelligent, funny, full of info, angry at the right kind of thing, a bit perverse, largely self-aware (though wont to rambling anecdotes). The moffatt-baiting and jokes seem to have taken over. Shame.

(which he'd then take down before the following week iirc?)

yes, this was maddening

So I got that Melody Pond became River Song bc Melody = Song and they didn't have ponds in the forest, just rivers. But a) why is the baby named Pond when Rory's last name is Williams (he is the father, right?) and b) why are the names reversed? Shouldn't she be Song River if it's just a translation issue?

Plenty of cultures even on real live right now earth reverse the family and given names. As for it being pond not williams, they was a little to and fro about that.

"Melody Williams is a school teacher, Melody Pond is a superhero," quoth Amy.

...reverse the family and given names from the standard western convention. Given that China does this and India does it both ways probably more people put their surname first than the other way round. (The french do this as well for addressing letters, plane tickets etc.)

Interesting info! Both pieces. I must've missed the exchange about the school teacher/superhero thing.

Props to the Doctor for not recruiting, I dunno, Micky and Martha or some other lamers for this particular war.

you fucking racist

― all cats are gay (sic), Monday, 6 June 2011 09:47 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i somehow have it in mind that the name reversal is because of the prayer cloth thing with names on each side and there is no order to which is first.

i'm a bit confused by the name on the cloth and the name 'in high gallifreyan' on the cot. was it really on the cot, or is that a fake out? (how could it be on there already?). if it is on the cloth, did it get duplicated like the flesh clothing gets duplicated? if not, then it's not with the tiny melody, so my theory is balls.

The name on the cloth was sewn on by the girl (who dies fighting on the Doctor's side) from the Forest. It specifically says the words don't translate.

i caught where the name on the cloth came from. but how does the name embroidered in forest-translated-ese get to go along with the baby. it's in amy's hand (transforming via tardis telepathy), so how did the real abductified baby grow up with the name if it's not written anywhere, unless the cloth in amy's hand is a flesh-tech duplicate too. i am still o_O

I'm not sure what you're not getting there BUT yeah, the name on the crib seems fishy, if that says either River Song or Melody Pond on it in old Gallifreyan then a) why's the doctor claiming it's his and b) how come he already had it and c) given that he already had it how is he surprised to learn who River really is?

i think the writing on the crib HAS to be a red herring - it makes no sense that THAT says melody pond. and the only thing that has the babel-translation and back to make it work is the gamman prayer cloth thing. (into gallifreyan and back it would be something else)

so maybe the cloth gets back to melody (does the doctor take it at the end when he whizzes off wherever the heck he's off to?)

presumably as a Time Lord cot it is capable of changing its name to identify which child it is currently associated with?

(i cracked and iplayered the last bit. the cot writing is just amy getting the wrong end of the stick, when river is referring to the cloth. so i'm ok on that count)

The whole cybermen bit seemed a bit redundant, other than the fact that the doctor had to get angry at a Classic big time Who enemy and Moffat didn't want to use the Daleks. In any case I thought the Cybermen were only a big deal in Rose's parallel universe. I'm not sure I can remember what was meant to have happened to them in the current who universe.

[SPECULATION]

River Song is

a) The Doctor's Mother

b) Galifreyan Eve -> New Galifrey Formed?

c) The extra DNA is somehow from the Tardis (now we know that the Tardis is a Woman) its some kind of not quite immaculate conception. Therefore does this follow that the Library is now some kind of Tardis possibly taken over by the Silence/Whatever is in James Corden's bedroom. Possibly House is involved somehow as well.

d) River Song is some kind of key that will undo the timewar and put all the old who stuff back in its proper place in the universe.

e) The timelord DNA is some kind of bleedthrough/projection from wherever the Timelords went and this is Timothy Dalton trying to break out again

f) something to do with The Master, maybe Lucy Saxon got the master's DNA into Amy somehow?

[/SPECULATION]

It's interesting to read the other Moffatt comments from 1996--he doesn't seem as though he'd be that keen to bring back Gallifrey, in that he finds it incredibly boring

From Lawrence Miles, completely missing the point: ""Blink" ... still seems unforgivably lazy to me ... Any competent writer should be able to auto-produce this kind of thing without even thinking about it ..." etc etc
Yeah, right, one of the best Who episodes ever, one of the best 45mins of TV I've ever seen, sure, anyone can just piss that out.

why is the baby named Pond when Rory's last name is Williams (he is the father, right?)

Rory’s last name is Pond.

“That’s not how it works.”
“Yes it is.”
“Yeah, it is.”

“Roranicus Pondicus!”

Also, show aside, wtf at a baby not being able to have the mother’s surname ffs.

i caught where the name on the cloth came from. but how does the name embroidered in forest-translated-ese get to go along with the baby.

FYI the babby a) will be rescued at some point in the show (and b) has already seen it onscreen so.)

In any case I thought the Cybermen were only a big deal in Rose's parallel universe. I'm not sure I can remember what was meant to have happened to them in the current who universe.

They were all wiped out from all points in history in the Time War. But Rusty’s shit ones from a parallel world have travelled to our universe now. Although these ones here didn’t have a Cybus logo on their chests.

(SPECULATION)
River Song is
a) The Doctor's Mother

They fake you out with this for a minute in this ep, but that’s all.

b) Galifreyan Eve -> New Galifrey Formed?

Can’t see the point.

c) The extra DNA is somehow from the Tardis (now we know that the Tardis is a Woman) its some kind of not quite immaculate conception. Therefore does this follow that the Library is now some kind of Tardis possibly taken over by the Silence/Whatever is in James Corden's bedroom. Possibly House is involved somehow as well.

The TARDIS isn’t necessarily a woman, it was just put in a human’s body that happened to be a woman.

d) River Song is some kind of key that will undo the timewar and put all the old who stuff back in its proper place in the universe.

Please no, I hate the no Daleks / surprise! it’s Daleks, no Cybermen / surprise! it’s Cybermen, no Time Lords / surprise! it’s Time Lords nonsense from RTD, but a) EVERYTHING IS BACK NOW except OG Cybermen anyway, and bringing old continuity into the new show is just boring and alienating for 98.2% of the audience.

e) The timelord DNA is some kind of bleedthrough/projection from wherever the Timelords went and this is Timothy Dalton trying to break out again

Fuck this too, there’s nothing useful to do with the Time Lords as Rusty left them. Or at any time post-Deadly Assassin, really (I <3 Invasion Of Time but rly)

f) something to do with The Master, maybe Lucy Saxon got the master's DNA into Amy somehow?

Maybe TEH RANI DID IT!!!!!1111one!

does anyone have a link or salvaged copy of Miles' at-the-time response to Blink? (or Unquiet Dead?)

It's interesting to read the other Moffatt comments from 1996--he doesn't seem as though he'd be that keen to bring back Gallifrey, in that he finds it incredibly boring

yay!

am i correct in assuming that...

1) the real amy was kidnapped at some point in in the temporal vicinity of her wedding (or maybe when she was a little girl...? and has been flesh ever since...?)
2) the real amy has been trapped by the priests and headless monks while she gave birth to a child that we are lead to believe will be river song (and is currently named melody pond?)
3) the doctor is killed by a little girl (who may end up being melody pond/river song) and is presumably going to be sentenced to life for her crimes but frequently able to break out, as long as she does not tell the doctor the true nature of their relationship prior to the demons run incident?
4) there's, perhaps, a second doctor running around who escaped from the flesh monster/acid island and he is doing evil-warrior-ish things and getting confused with the real-real doctor? like maybe he saved a little girl in the gamma forest, and she later saves his life?

what am i missing?

1. presumably after her wedding and the conception of the baby--if Amy was kidnapped earlier, the baby wouldn't be a time-vortex-affected baby
2. yes
3. the Doctor is killed by someone he recognised who was wearing (presumably) the same spacesuit that the little girl had been wearing, but 36 years AFTER the little girl was wandering around in the suit, so may not be the little girl, and if it was, she may well not be a little girl any more, but if it ios the girl then presumably she is the same as River Song
4. this could well be so

1) Amy was kidnapped between S5ep13 and S6ep1. This is said specifically in S6ep7.
2) Also shown explicitly in S6ep7.
3) We don't know yet. It could be, but might be a misdirect.
4) No. All that talk is about the real Doctor.

4) although there could be a second Dr reconstituted from the Flesh Doctor's shoes and stabilised in the TARDIS.

Someone should check the photo of Amy & babby from ep 2 and see how old babby was in that.