Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Lawrence Miles comes across as a humourless old grumpy pants who wishes the show was exactly as it was in the 70s, even though if he'd actually been around then he'd probably moan about it every week too.

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness.

If nu-Who were like his writing each episode would be six hours long and shunted to 3 am due to low ratings.

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness

Shit, you're not wrong. I couldn't read much of that before I had to flee. And this guy's claim to fame was that he wrote some of the spin-off books? I repeat what I said about them above.

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness.

There's a reason his nickname within the fandom is "Mad Larry"

(the point I am making is that wibbly etc is a rather annoying get-out-of-gaol free card)

It's not really a get-out-of-jail-free card because there IS no jail in the scenario you were talking about (ie how River could be Amy and Rory's daughter when she preceeds them both in the story). It's perfectly logical within the universe that's being created.

The problem with timey-wimey is not that it's a get out of jail free card, or that it's as Aldo says a deus ex machina (it isn't). It's that everything becomes an intricate puzzle that there's evidence of the Doctor *already having solved* at the beginning of each episode. We know that the Melody situation turns out okay because we know that River survives and teams up with the Doctor. So what we gain in mystery we lose in tension, to some extent.

Still, this episode was ace, and absolutely hilarious. Was like a big Rusty build-up but a) Rusty was actually really good at those, it was resolutions he sucked at, and b) it was better than a big Rusty build up. Awesome things:

- posh lactating nursemaid Sontaran >>>> all other Sontarans ever
- really want to see more of the Victorian alien/human lesbian couple. Thought the tongue lashing scene, while funny, was kinda near the knuckle even for a post-Torchwood Who
- we'll see more of the girl who died, in her past (and the Doctor's future)
- 'Let's Kill Hitler' = lololololol
- Headless monks = awesome

Pirates reappearing for no reason was kinda shite though.

The River reveal, while kinda obvious in the end, may be too early in the series, but it opens up a load more questions. Like, how old is she when she dies? How many regenerations of her will we see from now on? Could they make her a full-time companion with a different actress? Will there be Timelord babies? Do we know for sure that River died forever without regenerating at the end of Silence In The Library? I assume the fake Tardis is being built to transport future-Melody/River around, that seems logical, but there's a load of other stuff in the middle.

The whole series seems ingeniously put together and I'm sure it can actually resolve itself sensibly - there are lots of questions but not an unanswerable number.

Also I know people are at the stage of proactively looking for plot holes now, but there shouldn't be any issue with River meeting her younger self given the number of previous Doctors who have been in the same room at once.

im a bit of a spaz and missed a few steps, and was annoyed that lorna actually wasn't someone we were supposed to know -- moffat obviously not that much of an arc-master there -- but this was a good ep. rather than have filler crap like the pirates ep they could have made this a double though. there was about 15 seconds to get into the doctor's anger etc.

contained the first non-shit 'oh she's actually talking about rory' bit.

Do we know for sure that River died forever without regenerating at the end of Silence In The Library?

This was my first question too. And I've not gone back and rewatched, but according to the wikis there was specific dialogue about how that death was going to stop both the doctor's hearts and so he wouldn't be able to regenerate, which is why river insisted in taking his place. So yep, I think it's meant to be final.

Course, other regenerations between spacesuit-girl and alex kingston are totally an option.

Although it just so happens that every meeting between the Doc and River happens during the Matt Smith/Alex Kingston incarnations (er perhaps? Is that right? Given that the first and last time they meet, she is she and he is he.)

Oops, Doc was Tenant when she died. Still, same diff...

the Victorian alien/

you fucking racist

moffat obviously not that much of an arc-master there

rong! it is TOTALLY EXCELLENT to have the Dr recruit old pals that we have never seen bcz they were from off-screen adventures

we saw everyone he recruited tho didn't we? the girl was just one of the cleric troops who'd had a chance meeting as a child then defected

kinda want to know why the silurian was in victorian london, and the specifics of her position re eating her human victims (which jenny was alarmingly cool with) but hey ho

why the silurian was in victorian london,

bcz silurians have been earthlings and under the British isles longer than humans, therefore including Victorian times

the girl was just one of the cleric troops who'd had a chance meeting as a child then defected

but we'd never seen her before - and it's likely that the Dr hadn't even had the adventure where he first met her yet, given his complete pretending to remember the circumstances

fat blue dude we'd only seen meet River before too, not the Doctor

I also love the implication that Rory and Smith have had a bunch of off-screen adventures together in preparation for the start of this episode. please put Grant Morrison and John Ridgway back on the comic strip in DWM to tell one of these.

xp yeah i kept thinking it was somehow Alaya, the annoying one from Cold Blood (being the same actress) nm

we'd never seen Nurse Sontaran before either

again a same actor issue - i thought he was the one we saw Tennant whacking with a sledgehammer to save Martha & Mickey during the End Of Time final montage

I noticed he wasn't Mike From The Young Ones but couldn't remember if he was familiar or not. Anyway he cited his clone-group to make that one clear to semi-casual viewers

rong! it is TOTALLY EXCELLENT to have the Dr recruit old pals that we have never seen bcz they were from off-screen adventures

Yeah! And the season-opener did point out that the Doctor had been off travelling without Rory/Amy for about 2 years (or 200 if you're talking about the Doctor who died, but that's a different story)

Also, wouldn't the Doctor who was killed being Flesh contradict Moffatt's 'it wasn't a clone or a doppleganger' statement

Also, having recently seen Sean Pertwee in a couple of (admittedly not good) things, he looks so uncannily like his dad that surely, with a white wig, he could play the 3rd Doctor if they ever decide to have another multiple-doctors story

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02/pertwee_175x125.jpg
http://image1.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2008/226/6821181_121873692223.jpg

It's not really a get-out-of-jail-free card because there IS no jail in the scenario you were talking about (ie how River could be Amy and Rory's daughter when she preceeds them both in the story). It's perfectly logical within the universe that's being created.

The problem with timey-wimey is not that it's a get out of jail free card, or that it's as Aldo says a deus ex machina (it isn't). It's that everything becomes an intricate puzzle that there's evidence of the Doctor *already having solved* at the beginning of each episode.

I agree with you completely, and I wasn't clear when I made my point. Timey-wimey is most definitely the reason for this situation, but from a writing perspective there's a very, very fine line between (a) fiendishly planning an intricate web of relationships across time streams and releasing it slowly across 2–3 seasons of the show and (b) making it up as you go along and covering your tracks by saying 'ah well wibbly-wobbly'. I'm not saying that Moffat has indulged in (b) at all, but if at any point it transpires that Moffat did in fact make it all up on the fly (c.f. BAD WOLF) it'd be all too easy for him to play the wibbly card and feel confident that he got away with it.

the Victorian alien/

you fucking racist

― all cats are gay (sic), Monday, 6 June 2011 09:47 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

looooooove this

but we'd never seen her before - and it's likely that the Dr hadn't even had the adventure where he first met her yet, given his complete pretending to remember the circumstances

I thought that that was what gave her death its poignancy -- he runs with EVERYBODY, and it's all fun, but now the adventuring is starting to chew up the lives of all the people around the Doctor.

I really only liked the reveal, which was the only thing that resonated emotionally, because the rest of the story wasn't really paced as narrative, but as someone else said up-thread, as set pieces.

Also, I completely missed the Lizbian subtext???

least sub text ever

Main clue: The scene where the Silurian says something rude to her maid, then uses her EXTREMELY long and agile tongue to knock some dude out, then turns back tot he maid and says 'I Don't know why you put up with me!' and they pretty much waggle their eyebrows/scales at each other

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness.

― Peyton Flanders (Nicole), Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:48 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

This is, sadly, closer to the truth - from various accounts (many of which from his blog itself) he's not a well man. Most of his blogs tend to be angry tirades aimed at Moffat based on some silly falling out he had with SM after Moffat patted him firmly on the back in a pub once after buying him a pint (yes, really). Miles interpreted it as some threatening alpha male act and as never forgiven him. It's been joked about as "The Power Pat Of Doom" by a few ever since.

Wow. Stop with the tragic tales, I'm not going to be able to enjoy laughing at his ramblings now.

Your search - "The Power Pat Of Doom" - did not match any documents
;_;

Ah - some background here (DANGER: LIVEJOURNAL LINK)

http://doctorwho.livejournal.com/3624711.html

Oh, Miles did write The Book of the World (I've read it, it's crap), there just isn't any obvious proof that he wrote it before finding out that Moffat was doing a Space Library story. I don't personally disbelieve Miles about that, nor do I think it is the basis for his issues with Moffat. The last I heard Miles was claiming it was about Moffat power patting him and contributing to his alcoholism. Miles's side of the story, as retold by Charles Daniels at DWF:

Then, one day, the Moffat was nice to me. He came up and patted me on a shoulder, smiled, and offered to buy me a drink. What the Moffat didn't know was that I was keen follower of David Attenborough. Sure, some of my friends..well, Chris... have tried to convince me that Moffat was trying to be nice. BUT, Chris obviously isn't aware of what is really going on. David Attenborough would never lie to me. The Moffat was trying to make me part of his ape clan. He would be the master ape, and I would be the little monkey who collected all the berries and was then beaten until I relented and gave them away. This is how ape society works. This is why the Moffat was trying to hand me the banana of shame. The Moffat saw me and thought "Ahh, here is the berry picker of the tribe! I will not stoop to berry picker duties!"

Moffat's side of the story:

Really and truly it's not the criticism - I get way worse, way more publicly. It's the (untrue) personal stuff about me, 'validated' by his creepy pretense that we're Mates Down The Boozer together. Sometimes we're in the same pub - he edges closer, I edge away.

poor guy.

A C&P of the original blog post here: http://www.journalfen.net/users/avendya/672.html

It's a great shame - he's clearly a highly intelligent guy, but troubled :(

This is why the Moffat was trying to hand me the banana of shame.

Guy who comes up with lines like this deserves an episode imo, nuts or not.

(to write an episode that is, not to have one)

Think the last three paras of that blog post is proof that Lawrence is the inspiration for the time babby.

Comments

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comments otm

Can we have the condensed version? If ever there were links I wish NOT to follow...

"I managed to make Steven Moffat my bitch, just the once, by making the same moves that a gorilla might make while attempting to take control of the flange"

Also, the bit with 'thin-fat gay married Anglican marines' was such an RTD nudge; irl lol.

Can we have the condensed version? If ever there were links I wish NOT to follow...

Basically, Larry is Bernard Butler to Moffat's Brett Anderson, or something...

Always liked his week-by-week commentary (which he'd then take down before the following week iirc?) - at best intelligent, funny, full of info, angry at the right kind of thing, a bit perverse, largely self-aware (though wont to rambling anecdotes). The moffatt-baiting and jokes seem to have taken over. Shame.

(which he'd then take down before the following week iirc?)

yes, this was maddening

So I got that Melody Pond became River Song bc Melody = Song and they didn't have ponds in the forest, just rivers. But a) why is the baby named Pond when Rory's last name is Williams (he is the father, right?) and b) why are the names reversed? Shouldn't she be Song River if it's just a translation issue?

Plenty of cultures even on real live right now earth reverse the family and given names. As for it being pond not williams, they was a little to and fro about that.

"Melody Williams is a school teacher, Melody Pond is a superhero," quoth Amy.

...reverse the family and given names from the standard western convention. Given that China does this and India does it both ways probably more people put their surname first than the other way round. (The french do this as well for addressing letters, plane tickets etc.)

Interesting info! Both pieces. I must've missed the exchange about the school teacher/superhero thing.

Props to the Doctor for not recruiting, I dunno, Micky and Martha or some other lamers for this particular war.

you fucking racist

― all cats are gay (sic), Monday, 6 June 2011 09:47 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i somehow have it in mind that the name reversal is because of the prayer cloth thing with names on each side and there is no order to which is first.

i'm a bit confused by the name on the cloth and the name 'in high gallifreyan' on the cot. was it really on the cot, or is that a fake out? (how could it be on there already?). if it is on the cloth, did it get duplicated like the flesh clothing gets duplicated? if not, then it's not with the tiny melody, so my theory is balls.

The name on the cloth was sewn on by the girl (who dies fighting on the Doctor's side) from the Forest. It specifically says the words don't translate.