Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

would've liked Jenny & Mistress to have been official Torchwooders

does River actually know everything about her past (previous generations)? would hate her to be just pretending the girl in the spacesuit wasn't her (assuming it is), but i suppose she did know the Doctor and co wouldn't save her baby self at Demon's Run.

Was just looking up at my Doctor Who calendar (yes, I'm a nerd) which has Toby Jones the Dream Lord on it. TJ tells the Doctor he is a projection of the dark part of his psyche. TJ is dressed rather like the Doctor, with bow tie and tweed jacket. A RED bow tie. In Demon's Run, when he's at his most arrogant and vengeful, the Dr is wearing a RED bow tie. So I think it's important to pay attention to the tie he's wearing in recent episodes. I know some people have mentioned this on and off, but maybe there's something in it... Also the Crimson...

"Rory, I'm just a nurse".

Rory is also just a nurse, but is also the last centurion, River's dad, the Doctor's trusty companion, etc. I swear this is all heading towards Rory being Something Important.

(i'm really good at placing significance on all the wrong things and missing the actual point, so this won't happen at all)

there's def meant to be ambiguity about whether the "good man who goes to war" is Rory or teh Doctor

and so also maybe who the "best man she ever knew" who River killed was

River seemed much more interested in not telling the doctor who she was, rather than not telling her parents. Why?

she's not flirting with her parents?

Also, just read this question, unanswered, elsewhere and want answers. When was Amy gangered? Her ganger wasn't pregnant, and it was made clear from tumour woman that gangers were exact replicas. So why didn't ganger Amy show any physical signs of pregnancy? She had the contractions though at same time as real Amy...? Amy conceived after her honeymoon, right? At any rate, she must have been pregnant when taken. So why didn't the ganger replicate that?

Xpost, no, but you'd think they'd feature in your concern about being found out.

nah, bcz they have only known her very occasionally, as a grown-up, and didn't even know they had a baby. She and the Doctor have had many many many encounters, and he's known there were secrets she was keeping from his first meeting with her.

Amy was gangered before ep 1 - thus no signs of preggo, as she wasn't showing yet nor even sure she was up the duff.

the contractions were a bleedthrough from the psychic link

But if tumour could grow and kill the ganger in the last ep, why wasn't the replicated foetus growing in ganger Amy? I don't think I understand the ganger thing.

Amy ganger is advanced alien tech - Whoever controls it can also control its appearance.

I'm running with this Revelations/Paradise Lost/His Dark Materials War In Heaven idea. Don't think it's obscure either - the success of Pullman's trilogy suggests Moffat is aware kids can get the Biblical references.

Demon's Run, where the Doctor falls... Doriam inadvertently refers to the Dr's debtors as 'poor devils' ... Reference to a long war against the Doctor. Gamma Forest as 'heaven neutral' - presumably in this war. Church Army with angel wings in logo. Forests, rivers, angels... and where was the last time we saw the Weeping Angels? They're the Big Bad?

Also thinking back to the speculation about the scene back in End of Time where the shamed Timelords put their arms up before their face, making a WA like pose, ie hints that Weeping Angels and Timelords are somehow connected... Could be a coincidence or a misdirect, but the origins of the Angels have yet to be revealed. Or is it meant to be a mystery, lost in time?

ailsa, you need to think of the baby using pro-choice arguments. The tumor continues to grow because it is in, and of, the host body. The Doctor's shoes and Amy's foetus don't because although they are created by the Flesh they are not in and of the host and are therefore not updated by the Flesh. By extension, that's why that Ganger doesn't sneeze, because the Flesh doesn't sustain his cold.

can i just say this is all getting a bit LOST and that I really hope this pays off satisfactorily because boy, I dunno if I can take being burned by another TV show I love like this?

Ha, that's exactly what I was saying after eps 1 + 2. And yeah, still got a bad feeling about it.

I think Dan mentioned Lawrence Miles upthread. His "nu-who is a sack of shit" blog is regularly lol, but I can definitely see where he's coming from with this:

http://beasthouse-lm2.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-i-could-never-etc-volume-ii.html

you know I get the feeling we might see The Library again. We have a timelord baby saved in the databanks...

Yawn, Lawrence Miles comes across as a humourless old grumpy pants who wishes the show was exactly as it was in the 70s, even though if he'd actually been around then he'd probably moan about it every week too.

He's mostly wrong for sure, but it's still refreshing to hear somebody making the anti-Moffat arguments, I find it a lot less "yawn" than the blind praise he seems to get everywhere else tbh.

ugh I should really avoid lurking around certain DW sites. did not need to start thinking about Rory/Ganger sex or Amy's periods thank you very much.

What, compared to the show itself making you think of human/paving slab sex?

Another episode I had successfully blocked out until right then. :(

Also thinking back to the speculation about the scene back in End of Time where the shamed Timelords put their arms up before their face, making a WA like pose, ie hints that Weeping Angels and Timelords are somehow connected... Could be a coincidence or a misdirect, but the origins of the Angels have yet to be revealed. Or is it meant to be a mystery, lost in time?

The weeping angels do want a Tardis. And the Silence were building a Tardis. THERE'S JUST TOO MANY UNRESOLVED PLOT THREADS.

And the mysterious unresolved TARDIS from Lodger...
If it takes three series series to answer all the stuff begun in series 5 it will really piss me off. Explain some stuff already!

I mean I like a good mystery but its starting to feel like one season's plot arch is being stretched to fit multiple seasons. At least give us a hint at some reason why the Doctor seems so reticent to figure everything out.

We're only mid-season! Plenty will be revealed in the Autumn, I'm sure.

Not saying the Moff is beyond criticism, but Miles is a nit-picker nonpareil. He does have a point re the arc being a poor substitute for storytelling, but I think Moffat is learning to balance the arc with strong individual episodes.

I swear this is all heading towards Rory being Something Important.

100%. He really needs to be if they're to justify hs presence in the show for so long.

That episode was so much FUN.

He's the father of the Time Babby, surely that's pretty important? We've seen him stand up and be a bad ass and I think we'll only get more of this.

Lawrence Miles comes across as a humourless old grumpy pants who wishes the show was exactly as it was in the 70s, even though if he'd actually been around then he'd probably moan about it every week too.

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness.

If nu-Who were like his writing each episode would be six hours long and shunted to 3 am due to low ratings.

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness

Shit, you're not wrong. I couldn't read much of that before I had to flee. And this guy's claim to fame was that he wrote some of the spin-off books? I repeat what I said about them above.

See, to me he comes across as someone deep in the throes of a serious mental illness.

There's a reason his nickname within the fandom is "Mad Larry"

(the point I am making is that wibbly etc is a rather annoying get-out-of-gaol free card)

It's not really a get-out-of-jail-free card because there IS no jail in the scenario you were talking about (ie how River could be Amy and Rory's daughter when she preceeds them both in the story). It's perfectly logical within the universe that's being created.

The problem with timey-wimey is not that it's a get out of jail free card, or that it's as Aldo says a deus ex machina (it isn't). It's that everything becomes an intricate puzzle that there's evidence of the Doctor *already having solved* at the beginning of each episode. We know that the Melody situation turns out okay because we know that River survives and teams up with the Doctor. So what we gain in mystery we lose in tension, to some extent.

Still, this episode was ace, and absolutely hilarious. Was like a big Rusty build-up but a) Rusty was actually really good at those, it was resolutions he sucked at, and b) it was better than a big Rusty build up. Awesome things:

- posh lactating nursemaid Sontaran >>>> all other Sontarans ever
- really want to see more of the Victorian alien/human lesbian couple. Thought the tongue lashing scene, while funny, was kinda near the knuckle even for a post-Torchwood Who
- we'll see more of the girl who died, in her past (and the Doctor's future)
- 'Let's Kill Hitler' = lololololol
- Headless monks = awesome

Pirates reappearing for no reason was kinda shite though.

The River reveal, while kinda obvious in the end, may be too early in the series, but it opens up a load more questions. Like, how old is she when she dies? How many regenerations of her will we see from now on? Could they make her a full-time companion with a different actress? Will there be Timelord babies? Do we know for sure that River died forever without regenerating at the end of Silence In The Library? I assume the fake Tardis is being built to transport future-Melody/River around, that seems logical, but there's a load of other stuff in the middle.

The whole series seems ingeniously put together and I'm sure it can actually resolve itself sensibly - there are lots of questions but not an unanswerable number.

Also I know people are at the stage of proactively looking for plot holes now, but there shouldn't be any issue with River meeting her younger self given the number of previous Doctors who have been in the same room at once.

im a bit of a spaz and missed a few steps, and was annoyed that lorna actually wasn't someone we were supposed to know -- moffat obviously not that much of an arc-master there -- but this was a good ep. rather than have filler crap like the pirates ep they could have made this a double though. there was about 15 seconds to get into the doctor's anger etc.

contained the first non-shit 'oh she's actually talking about rory' bit.

Do we know for sure that River died forever without regenerating at the end of Silence In The Library?

This was my first question too. And I've not gone back and rewatched, but according to the wikis there was specific dialogue about how that death was going to stop both the doctor's hearts and so he wouldn't be able to regenerate, which is why river insisted in taking his place. So yep, I think it's meant to be final.

Course, other regenerations between spacesuit-girl and alex kingston are totally an option.

Although it just so happens that every meeting between the Doc and River happens during the Matt Smith/Alex Kingston incarnations (er perhaps? Is that right? Given that the first and last time they meet, she is she and he is he.)

Oops, Doc was Tenant when she died. Still, same diff...

the Victorian alien/

you fucking racist

moffat obviously not that much of an arc-master there

rong! it is TOTALLY EXCELLENT to have the Dr recruit old pals that we have never seen bcz they were from off-screen adventures

we saw everyone he recruited tho didn't we? the girl was just one of the cleric troops who'd had a chance meeting as a child then defected

kinda want to know why the silurian was in victorian london, and the specifics of her position re eating her human victims (which jenny was alarmingly cool with) but hey ho

why the silurian was in victorian london,

bcz silurians have been earthlings and under the British isles longer than humans, therefore including Victorian times

the girl was just one of the cleric troops who'd had a chance meeting as a child then defected

but we'd never seen her before - and it's likely that the Dr hadn't even had the adventure where he first met her yet, given his complete pretending to remember the circumstances

fat blue dude we'd only seen meet River before too, not the Doctor

I also love the implication that Rory and Smith have had a bunch of off-screen adventures together in preparation for the start of this episode. please put Grant Morrison and John Ridgway back on the comic strip in DWM to tell one of these.

xp yeah i kept thinking it was somehow Alaya, the annoying one from Cold Blood (being the same actress) nm

we'd never seen Nurse Sontaran before either

again a same actor issue - i thought he was the one we saw Tennant whacking with a sledgehammer to save Martha & Mickey during the End Of Time final montage

I noticed he wasn't Mike From The Young Ones but couldn't remember if he was familiar or not. Anyway he cited his clone-group to make that one clear to semi-casual viewers

rong! it is TOTALLY EXCELLENT to have the Dr recruit old pals that we have never seen bcz they were from off-screen adventures

Yeah! And the season-opener did point out that the Doctor had been off travelling without Rory/Amy for about 2 years (or 200 if you're talking about the Doctor who died, but that's a different story)

Also, wouldn't the Doctor who was killed being Flesh contradict Moffatt's 'it wasn't a clone or a doppleganger' statement

Also, having recently seen Sean Pertwee in a couple of (admittedly not good) things, he looks so uncannily like his dad that surely, with a white wig, he could play the 3rd Doctor if they ever decide to have another multiple-doctors story

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02/pertwee_175x125.jpg
http://image1.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2008/226/6821181_121873692223.jpg

It's not really a get-out-of-jail-free card because there IS no jail in the scenario you were talking about (ie how River could be Amy and Rory's daughter when she preceeds them both in the story). It's perfectly logical within the universe that's being created.

The problem with timey-wimey is not that it's a get out of jail free card, or that it's as Aldo says a deus ex machina (it isn't). It's that everything becomes an intricate puzzle that there's evidence of the Doctor *already having solved* at the beginning of each episode.

I agree with you completely, and I wasn't clear when I made my point. Timey-wimey is most definitely the reason for this situation, but from a writing perspective there's a very, very fine line between (a) fiendishly planning an intricate web of relationships across time streams and releasing it slowly across 2–3 seasons of the show and (b) making it up as you go along and covering your tracks by saying 'ah well wibbly-wobbly'. I'm not saying that Moffat has indulged in (b) at all, but if at any point it transpires that Moffat did in fact make it all up on the fly (c.f. BAD WOLF) it'd be all too easy for him to play the wibbly card and feel confident that he got away with it.

the Victorian alien/

you fucking racist

― all cats are gay (sic), Monday, 6 June 2011 09:47 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

looooooove this

but we'd never seen her before - and it's likely that the Dr hadn't even had the adventure where he first met her yet, given his complete pretending to remember the circumstances

I thought that that was what gave her death its poignancy -- he runs with EVERYBODY, and it's all fun, but now the adventuring is starting to chew up the lives of all the people around the Doctor.

I really only liked the reveal, which was the only thing that resonated emotionally, because the rest of the story wasn't really paced as narrative, but as someone else said up-thread, as set pieces.

Also, I completely missed the Lizbian subtext???