Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

I mean you get used to seeing McCoy getting about in question marks and standing off against giant liquorice all-sorts, and then suddenly his mate's gobbing it in a cab.

Cwej as introduced and in pretty much every book up to that point was the quintessential "good cop"; almost always cheerful, tendency towards optimism, laid back and fun when off the clock and really, really focused on his job when on the clock with a staggering level of proficiency. He was supposed to be a perfect foil to his older, wearier partner Roz, who had just as strong of a justice streak but was MUCH more cynical and way more likely to presume guilt. It would have totally been within Roz's character to get fed up with a stakeout and do something else (likely not sexual, but more along the lines of say breaking into wherever they were staking out to look for clues) but Cwej was, until that scene, way more of the "these are my orders and I am politely carrying them out; sorry for the inconvenience" type.

xp: lolololol

(Benny, Chris and Roz are one of my favorite TARDIS crews of all-time)

A bit of me cheers every time new Who does something to fuck up incorporating the books into canon, ans all but one of my attempts to read them has been frustrated by the fan-wanking continuity crap, feeble prose, and the writers determiantion to make every event and every companion from the books SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than anything that ever happened on TV

The only good book I finished was the one, title now forgotten, written from the POVs of Alan Turing, Graham Greene and Joseph Heller

AS all but one, I mean

that was a BBC book by Paul Leonard, The Turing Test

IMO the best writers they had were Lawrence Miles, Jonathan Morris and Ben Aaronovitch

Loooooove The Tomorrow Windows.

The first half hour felt like the days of Rusty throwing ideas together while wanking hoping everyone agreed with how great he is. The last 20 were OK, but River Reveal was decidedly average. The only great bit imo was "fool you twice with the same trick".

We mentioned the Rustyesque feel too. Still not quite sure how River can be Amy's daughter when she died before Smith and Amy even came into existence.

And we sussed Melody = River quite early on, but surely would be Song River?

Let's Kill Hitler?

I mean, it sort of makes sense that River keeps in with this doctor what with him zipping around with her mum and all. Doctor + River flowchart needs an update now.

reveal was too predictable in the end but didn't quite get why

a) river didn't take part in the battle
b) why this secret had to be kept until this particular point anyway

it really did feel ghost-written by RTD. the sontaran had the best lines anyway.

Ptime Pterodactyls from Father's Day, innit.

River can never meet Tiem Babby or they will start killing random people.

But didn't River meet Time Baby when she's in the astronaut outfit? Or I guess she didn't know who she was in that case...
See what you mean about the Rusty thing up to a point, but it was much better done. LOLed at the Stevie Wonder gag too...

I sometimes enjoy being an idiot who doesn't twig the most obvious and telegraphed reveals until they are revealed. i would hate to miss out on that suspense and surprise.

And we sussed Melody = River quite early on, but surely would be Song River?

ah the gamma forest people just do names the other way round. btw is gamma forest a thing from previous ep or just made up for this? his pretending to remember lorna when she was dying, with "didn't we run?", yeah that was good.

The River Song reveal seems to give away a lot. Presumably River is in the space suit and she kills the 'Best Man She Ever Knew'. But it's the Flesh Doctor she kills. But perhaps that's a deliberate misdirect? Afterall, surely a Flesh Doctor would turn to gloop, unless he stabilises himself in the Tardis. I'm wondering if killing the Doctor is something to do with bringing him back down to size, making him humble and wise again, rather than some feared superhero? But why go through this elaborate rigmarole to kill off one version of the Doctor?
Gamma Forest seems to be new, but it's probably not the last we've heard of it. Perhaps we'll meet Lorna Bucket again?
Compelling episode, but like all of Moffat's episodes this season, there wasn't much of a self-contained story, just the resolution of certain story arc elements along with some set pieces. Also, what happened to the space pirates etc etc - did they get killed by the Headless Monks? Or did they just turn up for the ambush and bugger off once the mission was accomplished? Cramming too much in to one episode so that characters are just forgotten about?

So is River in jail for killing the Doctor when she was a little astronaut girl?
hoping for a spinoff series about Lesbolizard and her trusty sidekick maid fighting crime in Victorian England.
(now there's a sentence i never thought i'd type.)

Gamma Forest and the Forest in the Weeping Angels two-parter in the last season? Omega soldiers from that episode. Means the Weeping Angels are the big bad somehow?
Also interesting that the Doctor doesn't know who Lorna Bucket is. Is it another version of the Doctor she meets? Would seem that there are two Doctors knocking about. One has to die because he's gotten too messianic?

A poster on the Graun blog:

"Ah well - a war in heaven (it is specifically mentioned that the Gamma forests are "heaven neutral"). I'm delighted to see that Moffat is having a Milton's Paradise Lost moment. I think Madame Kovarian is probably working for the TimeLords)."

A Philip Pullman moment too! A big war based around a child... River Song is Lyra...

Still not quite sure how River can be Amy's daughter when she died before Smith and Amy even came into existence.

― ailsa, Sunday, 5 June 2011 04:38 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wibbly
wobbly
timey
wimey

any chance of a moratorium on that?

Yeah, I've thought about it and come to the conclusion I am basically a moron.

Could the best man River ever knew be her dad? Rory surely due another death, and there's been tons of misdirects where we think someone's talking about the doctor, but it's really Rory.

any chance of a moratorium on that?

― blueski, Sunday, 5 June 2011 09:57 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

um it explains how River can be Amy's daughter when she died before Smith and Amy even came into existence

(the point I am making is that wibbly etc is a rather annoying get-out-of-gaol free card)

Could the best man River ever knew be her dad? Rory surely due another death, and there's been tons of misdirects where we think someone's talking about the doctor, but it's really Rory.

― ailsa, Sunday, 5 June 2011 09:58 (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

oooh, interesting.

btw I really hope this was planned all along and isn't just Moffat laying random plot strands and then trying to fit them all together retroactively nu-BSG style.

hoping for a spinoff series about Lesbolizard and her trusty sidekick maid fighting crime in Victorian England.

Yes! That was really the best part.

Wow, I enjoyed that so much. Loved gaslit lesbian lady Silurian crimefighter, loved lactating Sontaran nurse, loved arse-kicking Roman Rory, laughed at loud at 'Let's Kill Hitler". Now the hard bit will be waiting at least 3 months. If I die before I see how this all pans out I will be very annoyed.

How is people meeting out of order in a time travel show an annoying get-out-of-gaol free card though?

It's in danger of being the answer to everything that doesn't work or make sense, that's all.

btw I forgot to register my response on the internet. I really really liked this episode, right to the very end. Soooo much going on though.

I think this series may be where "timey-wimey" takes over to the point where people who aren't me start wishing teh Moff was as clever as he thinks he is.

― 4, 5, 6, The monkey's got a hockey stick (aldo), Saturday, 23 April 2011 17:59 (1 month ago)

https://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.drwho/browse_thread/thread/7cd734f99a62ae98/c845f05e9b213df9

I guess he's been waiting to use this idea for a while.

!!!!! far out

hoping for a spinoff series about Lesbolizard and her trusty sidekick maid fighting crime in Victorian England.

Me too. They were fantastic - like Sarah Waters doing sci-fi.

I like the theme of a healer also being a warrior, and vice versa - not just the meaning of "doctor" but the Sontaran warrior-turned-nurse and Rory the nurse-turned-Centurion, coming together in the Sontaran's dying sigh of "Rory, I'm just a nurse".

^^^all this was amazing. MY BIG IDEA: Sarah Waters for next showrunner, please.

"wibbly wobbly timey wimey" is a handwave that may or may not be overused

that's not the same as there being time travel in the series, which is kind of the core premise

would've liked Jenny & Mistress to have been official Torchwooders

does River actually know everything about her past (previous generations)? would hate her to be just pretending the girl in the spacesuit wasn't her (assuming it is), but i suppose she did know the Doctor and co wouldn't save her baby self at Demon's Run.

Was just looking up at my Doctor Who calendar (yes, I'm a nerd) which has Toby Jones the Dream Lord on it. TJ tells the Doctor he is a projection of the dark part of his psyche. TJ is dressed rather like the Doctor, with bow tie and tweed jacket. A RED bow tie. In Demon's Run, when he's at his most arrogant and vengeful, the Dr is wearing a RED bow tie. So I think it's important to pay attention to the tie he's wearing in recent episodes. I know some people have mentioned this on and off, but maybe there's something in it... Also the Crimson...

"Rory, I'm just a nurse".

Rory is also just a nurse, but is also the last centurion, River's dad, the Doctor's trusty companion, etc. I swear this is all heading towards Rory being Something Important.

(i'm really good at placing significance on all the wrong things and missing the actual point, so this won't happen at all)

there's def meant to be ambiguity about whether the "good man who goes to war" is Rory or teh Doctor

and so also maybe who the "best man she ever knew" who River killed was

River seemed much more interested in not telling the doctor who she was, rather than not telling her parents. Why?

she's not flirting with her parents?

Also, just read this question, unanswered, elsewhere and want answers. When was Amy gangered? Her ganger wasn't pregnant, and it was made clear from tumour woman that gangers were exact replicas. So why didn't ganger Amy show any physical signs of pregnancy? She had the contractions though at same time as real Amy...? Amy conceived after her honeymoon, right? At any rate, she must have been pregnant when taken. So why didn't the ganger replicate that?

Xpost, no, but you'd think they'd feature in your concern about being found out.

nah, bcz they have only known her very occasionally, as a grown-up, and didn't even know they had a baby. She and the Doctor have had many many many encounters, and he's known there were secrets she was keeping from his first meeting with her.

Amy was gangered before ep 1 - thus no signs of preggo, as she wasn't showing yet nor even sure she was up the duff.

the contractions were a bleedthrough from the psychic link

But if tumour could grow and kill the ganger in the last ep, why wasn't the replicated foetus growing in ganger Amy? I don't think I understand the ganger thing.

Amy ganger is advanced alien tech - Whoever controls it can also control its appearance.

I'm running with this Revelations/Paradise Lost/His Dark Materials War In Heaven idea. Don't think it's obscure either - the success of Pullman's trilogy suggests Moffat is aware kids can get the Biblical references.

Demon's Run, where the Doctor falls... Doriam inadvertently refers to the Dr's debtors as 'poor devils' ... Reference to a long war against the Doctor. Gamma Forest as 'heaven neutral' - presumably in this war. Church Army with angel wings in logo. Forests, rivers, angels... and where was the last time we saw the Weeping Angels? They're the Big Bad?

Also thinking back to the speculation about the scene back in End of Time where the shamed Timelords put their arms up before their face, making a WA like pose, ie hints that Weeping Angels and Timelords are somehow connected... Could be a coincidence or a misdirect, but the origins of the Angels have yet to be revealed. Or is it meant to be a mystery, lost in time?

ailsa, you need to think of the baby using pro-choice arguments. The tumor continues to grow because it is in, and of, the host body. The Doctor's shoes and Amy's foetus don't because although they are created by the Flesh they are not in and of the host and are therefore not updated by the Flesh. By extension, that's why that Ganger doesn't sneeze, because the Flesh doesn't sustain his cold.

can i just say this is all getting a bit LOST and that I really hope this pays off satisfactorily because boy, I dunno if I can take being burned by another TV show I love like this?