2008 USP(G)ET pt. II: counting the days to 2012 primary thread 1

Do you read these links before you post them? The time one especially does a lot to support my arguments.

which arguments? you're misunderstanding or not addressing my point, which is that, while acknowledging that obama may well increase the deficit and that the US faces longer-term economic problems, there is more than enough money to pay for his health care plan against current baselines/within the existing budgetary framework.

an example of cost-reduction measures by an economist now advising obama. but if you want to judge this stuff on the level of european political rhetoric, then there's no point arguing.

That looks more like a caribou than a moose.

even if you are a Concord Coalition-style lifelong deficit obsessive - not that there's anything wrong with that - you still must acknowledge that the problem is a) long-term, and b) much larger than the specifics of obama's health-care plan

and while budget hawkery is not necessarily a partisan approach, in our political framework, you in fact could be accused of making the right-wing argument here

the next step would be to talk about how we can't really live with social security and medicaid any more

So your answer to this is 'the Chinese will finance the American healthcare system, next year and forever', right?

no, i'm saying that that obama's healthcare plan is merely a fraction of american spending financed by the Chinese. but it's also worth pointing out that a specific goal of his plan is to reduce the enormous amount of healthcare spending by both government and the private sector and that he regards this result as an important deficit-reduction stepping stone.

gabbneb I hear u are rich do u think u could pay for obamas plan?

Ed, have you looked at Galbraith's recent book, The Predator State? He doesn't seem to think that the huge deficit in itself is too much of a problem for the US by virtue of its unique position in the world economy, and as long as that holds, America has quite a bit of breathing room...

max i'm just workin hard tryna keep my game right

that commercial's several weeks/months old, xp

I have read around it and there is a growing consensus that the US's 'unique position' is at best faltering. Nonetheless, whether you subscribe to that theory or not relying on the rest of the world to pay for your overpriced healthcare does not seem the best way to provide financial or physical security.

xposts

ed, are you for obama's health care plan, costs aside?

or is it too 'overpriced'?

I think this ad is pretty solid

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/obama_campaign_launches_ad_hit.php

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/obama_campaign_launches_ad_hit.php

Idealistic me, says that you should nationalise your healthcare system if you want to eliminate costs. Relaistic me says there should be a federal insurance scheme open to any and all who wish to join, that employer contributions should be mandated, the poorest segment of society should be paid for, individual contributions should to the federal system should be incentivised and having some kind of health cover should be compulsory.

Obmam's plan is a bit short on compulsion and a lot short on incentives to make the federal system the biggest (and therefore most efficient) healthcare system going. It lacks a degree of vision.

uh, xp

you don't even look before you post, do you

obama's plan recognizes that full federalization is more politically difficult and possibly prohibitive and that it's better to do something. it also sets up a system that could lay the groundwork for later federalization.

Mr. Que and Mr. Queue

i just didn't get a lotta sleep

I understand that but there is nothing to stop the Federal system from being the most attractive deal in town through tax credits, for example.

right, and Obama's approach allows for the possibility of a gradual, market-based 'federalization' of health care through the creation of a national health care program targeted at the uninsured but with universal accessibility and subsidized enrollment

too gradualist, he has to get enough people invested in the success of the system so that dismantling it becomes untenable to whoever follows him in power.

we're not really a dismantling kind of culture, you know? no one is going to win against "they're going to take your health care away"

Thought of the Day
09.15.08 -- 10:21AM By Josh Marshall
The man most responsible for the financial services and banking deregulation that made today possible, fmr. Sen. Phil Gramm, is the man John McCain wants to put in charge of the whole economy.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/216912.php

http://www.youtube.com/v/OviYjJWIYbY

Sorry, maybe this will work:

There we go. The clip is Fox News grilling the McCain campaign for lying.

I think what Ed's getting at is that unless everyone - especially the rich - has access to government health insurance, it runs the risk of being "insurance for poor people" and can then be killed off later, i.e. welfare

I mean, as far as regulations or schemes that protect ordinary people go, America is very much a dismantling culture

STFU PALIN

(yeah I am watching this shit live on sky news at work)

bandwagon-jumping queen bitch

i understand what he and you are getting at, and disagree. i would rather do something that runs the risk of being dismantled than seek something that increases the risk of not doing anything.

afdc did not cover 40 million americans

and afdc recipients had other programs to turn to

What is the point of a universal healthcare system if it only last 4 years?

the biz community now largely favors health care regulation

...

the fear that universal health care might be dismantled is a totally bizarre one

Businesses with large unionised workforces, with longstanding legacy benefits favour minimising their liabilities, I don't think the obama plan does much for them. Small business as seen through the GOP smalltown lens will not want to cough up anything extra. If the benefits are not widely felt then it is an easy easy target for the GOP to hit as a wasteful boondoggle in '10 and '12.

do keep up

Once again, read the article before you post it and please explain how the Obama plan shifts the burden from companies with longs-standing healthcare commitments? Also try and do this without being a supercilious, patronising young fellow.

Tucker Bounds suicide watch

i'm merely pointing out that your suggestion that business would be opposed to a universal plan is not correct

wait, gr8080 is max? wai 2 confuse