That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

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better than before.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:09 (twenty years ago) link

knowledge is power dumbasses

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:11 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, well, yo' mamma.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:13 (twenty years ago) link

yes, tribal people from thousands of years ago were terrible audiences. And the music then? sucked balls. Thank you music criticism!

(jess, thank you for omitting that comma)

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:13 (twenty years ago) link

Haha "A pubic hair B", I forgot about that one. Man, Meltzer kicks the shit out of everyone.

I seriously don't even know why people bother writing about rock in his wake. Kogan's stuff (like that Disco Tex essay) comes pretty close, tho.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:21 (twenty years ago) link

you didn't have audiences thousands of years ago, at least not among "tribal people" and this was in part becuz music served a difft. social role.

oh shit, did i just use "theory" again!? sorry.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:26 (twenty years ago) link

It's late, and I'm tired, so maybe that explains why I can't read this whole thread. And don't think me un-academic -- Sterling's posts are the ones I did read. There seems to be some argument over the purpose of criticism. I see it like this, and I try not to think about it much past this, because if I do I get bogged down in these types of discussions:

Criticism is public service, but it's not office work. Its ultimate purpose is to communicate to others about music and the culture surrounding it, but not dryly or obviously. It's journalism, but it's meta-journalism. It is aware of itself. It exists to inform and elucidate, but also to entertain. Whether it's bullshit or not is purely subjective, and whether it's academic or not depends on the kind of writer you are, and the audience you want to reach. Taking an academic approach to writing about music is not the same thing as being an academic -- music, after all, is not an academic exercise in and of itself, or at least it shouldn't be. Sounds are not ideas, they are sounds. Music writers are exactly the kinds of organic intellectuals that Sterling mentioned (I really like that concept, BTW). They work from a base of that which is un-intellectual and attempt to put it in broader context, which is an intellectual activity. This activity contains an inner conflict, but a mild one, to my thinking. If Walt Whitman can intellectualize a blade of grass, why can't I intellectualize a guitar?

I understand all this very clearly, and I accept it, and I don't think it an act of stubbornness to refuse to discuss it further. There are layers here, and contradictions, but no more than in my own personality. The true measure of an intellectual is the ability to deal with contradictions.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:32 (twenty years ago) link

and knowing is half the battle

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:36 (twenty years ago) link

yes, but you can know something without knowing it. like when you know a record is good.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:38 (twenty years ago) link

don't ask me, i can only parrot what i learned from g.i. joe

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:40 (twenty years ago) link

You have to be an intellectual in order to deal w/contradictions?
I'd argue that you did have audiences back then, THEY just functioned differently. But forget thousands of years ago, how 'bout hundreds of years ago? How bout the present time? There are whole music cultures that exist outside of music criticism, ie they don't read it and are not written about. Is the music they produce and the audience that listens to it not as 'good' as other more cosmopolitan and self-aware musics and audiences?
Better is a terrible term to use here.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:41 (twenty years ago) link

You have to be an intellectual in order to deal w/contradictions?

I didn't say that. A useful intellectual is able to get down in the pit of contradiction with everybody else.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:44 (twenty years ago) link

Jess is right, knowledge is power, it's also sexy. And cute adjectives and turns of phrase are no substitute for ideas. Meltzer's writing is bubbling with ideas and yeah he was arrogant about it, needlessly probably, but so what, it doesn't bother me. Because he was smart enough to get away with it. His writing excites the imagination, it forces you to be creative yourself, it does the music justice.

I mean there is just reams and reams of writing about music around, and it's staggering how bad most of it is, how uncool, unsexy most of it is. Meltzer was able to wed theory and his his own whacked concepts to rock music in his writing, in a way that seemed wholly inside, of the music. And he did all this at the beginning! WHen there was no codified "rock criticism", when there were no banal "literary critism" majors running around American campuses. So much of the writing around seems so pointless, so lacking in imagination, I don't even think the writers know why they do it. And we're fucking swimming in it! It's everywhere!

But just as words aren't substitutes for ideas, dropping the names of famous theorists is no substitute for using their ideas in interesting ways. I like Sterling's writing a lot, but that Ja Rule clip was just silly name-dropping; I mean it has nothing to do with any sort of Gramscian concept of hegemony at all, it was just gratuitous. But at the same time, at this point Sterling or any other writer shouldn't have to gloss Gramsci's ideas in the course of invoking him. He's, uh, a pretty well-established theorist. The Genovese reference, however, probably should have been prefaced by something like "In his important text Wages of Whiteness, the African-AMerican historian," (or whatever, was it WoW? I read him like 10 years ago but I hardly think that's the type of name that can just be gracefully dropped without explication)

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:51 (twenty years ago) link

yes oops you nailed me. my wild crazy assumption that "communication = good" is actually part of the evil western plot to denigrate every other culture and country in the world because there's nothing people who like popmusicwrite hate more than the evil barbaric savages of africa.

oh and Diamond -- it *totally* had to do with Gramsci -- the point being that the "universal" h8 of Ja and his popularity go hand in hand -- the consentual relations to his music cloaked as disdain for his "sellout" persona were the key to the article.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 04:57 (twenty years ago) link

well then what the fuck did you mean?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:01 (twenty years ago) link

and who the fuck mentioned Africa?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:06 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah, I should not have said it had nothing to do with Gramsci; just that Gramsci had bigger fish to fry. I mean I think he'd roll over in his grave to know that his legacy was to be employed in critique of the internal dynamics of the pop charts.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:07 (twenty years ago) link

okay oops. why *should* rockwrite contribute to music? there's a real and very important other and much more academic and rigorous field which contributes a great deal to music already -- its called "market research." Baysian statistics and digital signal processing probably had more to do with the current musical climate than Meltzer did.

But if you think people thinking about, talking about, trying to understand the music they listen to is a *good* think -- and I can't imagine you don't -- then it seems pretty obv. that bringing all tools possible to bear in this is also a good thing.

I mean you're the one making the absurd assumption that not using big words = not thinking and talking and trying to understand.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:26 (twenty years ago) link

Nope. Never made that assumption.
Maybe it shouldn't contribute to music. But if that's the case, it seems pretty useless: It's function would be to produce more thought, which leads to more criticism, which leads.... The definition of mental masturbation. Which is all fine and dandy, I just don't like it being regarded as some lofty thing on a hill, something we should all aim for, something 'better'.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 05:43 (twenty years ago) link

it does contribute to music: ppl read it and go off and make difft music

proof: the entire history of all music ever

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 22 May 2003 08:26 (twenty years ago) link

pps why didn't you contribute to my "if ppl don't write about music, does that music matter?" thread, oops

(i forgot its actual title)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 22 May 2003 08:27 (twenty years ago) link

Oops, Sterling's point earlier about criticism creating "better audiences" is key. Maybe that's an oblique way of saying it -- but to give a very simple example: Last night, I was reading through some of Matos' writing on his site and happened upon a bit where he proclaimed Sugar's "Gee Angel" the most monstrous rock single of the 90's this side of "Smells Like Teen Spirit." So I dug out the single, which I hadn't listened to in at least six years, and played it. I'd be lying if I said it blew me away, but Matos got me to appreciate the song all over again. This was just an off-handed reference, so imagine what a more in-depth critique could have accomplished.

But I'll also admit that a good portion of my love for popular music has to do with a fascination and excitement about its history, and the fact that its history is constantly being written and re-written. And so listening to that Sugar song made me simultaneously think "Wow, that riff is classic! I really want to dance now!" and also "Does this mean Sugar is underrated? If so, how come? Did they suffer from not being Husker Du? Is a singer's second band always considered inferior to their first band? etc. etc." I don't think that everyone is as captivated by that aspect of music as I am, and if you're not, then perhaps criticism doesn't seem as interesting.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 14:43 (twenty years ago) link

Re: needing to explain Genovese but not Gramsci. I'm honestly conflicted about this. I've read a little Gramsci, but it was so long ago, I can't actually summarize a single thing he said. (I do remember liking him!) My impulse is to say, "No, you should explain Gramsci, too," but then I worry that I'm filtering everything through my own degree of familiarity with these theorists. Obviously, you shouldn't need to explicate Freud's concept of the id/ego/superego -- that's standard high school psychology -- but I guess I'd rather err on the side of caution when it comes to folks like Gramsci, who I'd never even heard of until I took an aesthetics class. But this gets into all sorts of questions about audience. The reason this is such an explosive topic on ILM is that the community here consists of plenty of people who are more academic-minded, but also people that want to talk about music but find the academic angle frustrating. When we post here, who do we have in mind? The entire ILM community? Or the select group of people that we know will "get it"?

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 14:55 (twenty years ago) link

I love how dismissing "academic" music criticism has now become dismissing any kind of discussion about music at all.

All the best things in life are useless.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:08 (twenty years ago) link

what about sex and tacos?

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:15 (twenty years ago) link

(Considering for a second that "better audiences" might mean intellectual-enlightening-the-sheep. That's not what I mean, and I hope it's not what Sterling means, either.)

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:17 (twenty years ago) link

god forbid! production of thought!!!

all of this wasting of time with "ideas" when we could be doing louie louie covers in our garage!

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:19 (twenty years ago) link

Sex is useless! Unless you're making babies (a Darwinian would say). There's an entire puritanical Catholic/capitalist morality centered around the concept of "usefulness," which is used to exclude pleasure...

Ben Williams, Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:20 (twenty years ago) link

Sterl, are you responding to me or Oops?

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:21 (twenty years ago) link

b-but tacos

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:22 (twenty years ago) link

(ha ha ben, you don't have to explain catholicism to me, trust me...sigh)

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

(What I object to about "intellectuals-enlightening-the-sheep" is not the production of ideas -- but that whole top-down, Adorno-ish consumers-are-dupes mentality.)

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link

You don't really need those tacos. They're kind of fancy, a luxury item when you get down to it. Are that wrap and those toppings really necessary? Beans and rice should do you just fine.

Ben Williams, Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link

that's two carbs

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:28 (twenty years ago) link

There's an entire puritanical Catholic/capitalist morality centered around the concept of "usefulness," which is used to exclude pleasure...
Pleasure is more useful than more babies. Without sexual pleasure you end up trying to draw a smiley face across America with pipe bomb explosion by mail.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:28 (twenty years ago) link

Tacos aren't shit next to burritos anyway.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:29 (twenty years ago) link

well yeah, but i was trying to go "stripped down"

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:30 (twenty years ago) link

Custos, who said that kid wasn't experiencing sexual pleasure? Wasn't he fucking Kurt Cobain's corpse?

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link

which kid...and when was he fucking the necrotic flesh of Kurt Cobain?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:37 (twenty years ago) link

I think "stripped down" would be more like a quesadilla.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:40 (twenty years ago) link

so then the only ism coming out of Kurt's mouth was...

Neudonym, Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

ally otm (for once on this thread! *ducks*)

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:41 (twenty years ago) link

haha, no joke I'm listening to a scritti politti mp3 right now (guess which one)

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:42 (twenty years ago) link


  ________________________________________
(COME TASTE MY TACO FLAVORED KEEESSSEESSSS)
        V

http://a1980.g.akamai.net/7/1980/3428/4565d6a33c48b3/www.tacobell.com/images/03home_01ecards1.gif

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:45 (twenty years ago) link

James is jealous of my affection for Miccio. WHEN WILL THE DRAMA END? STAY TUNED, EAT TACOS.

Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:47 (twenty years ago) link

it's baseball season ally, my affection lies with felicity (c-ya come football season tho!)

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:48 (twenty years ago) link

that wacky green gartside...it's all his fault after all

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 22 May 2003 15:48 (twenty years ago) link

it does contribute to music: ppl read it and go off and make difft music
proof: the entire history of all music ever

You cannot be serious
/Johnny Mac

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:02 (twenty years ago) link

So jaymc, your argument is that 'overacademic bullshit' (shorthand, and not my phrase) prompts overacademic bullshitters to create more overacademic bullshit, but in a musical form?
What I'm saying is that it serves a purpose to those who are interested in it. If you like abstract, intellectual thought and art, then it will aid you in developing this type of thought and art. But for those who don't like intellectualism, it is of little value. Saying that intellectual music criticism/analysis produces better music is an empty statement, since it's only better to those who enjoy that type of art, ie it's a tautology.
I'm really turned off by the snobbery inherent in this: people don't 'get it'. It's more important/better. It advances art/is advanced art.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:14 (twenty years ago) link

but that's just YOUR OPINION.

go listen to all music ever and see if you still think the same thing.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 22 May 2003 18:17 (twenty years ago) link


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