Odyssey Dawn: a military operations in Libya thread.

playin' possum

did the music to Superfly IIRC

I get all that dudes; I was picking at the contention of "moral obligation".

ah the "stone age" guy. yeah that really reflects my politics *rolls eyes*

There's arguably a moral obligation to prevent crimes against humanity where they can reasonably be predicted. The idea that Benghazi would be flattened with huge civilian loss of life is probably the primary moral / legal (rather than logistical) difference between Libya and some of the other states in question.

In some cases acting on that moral obligation won't be possible, in others it might make things worse, in many the obligation will simply be ignored. Where it's possible to act legally, effectively and in line with the principles of the UN, i don't think inaction elsewhere prevents it from being valid. Whether that's what's happened in Libya is clearly open to debate.

Again: where is the difference? Why the "moral obligation" in Libya but not elsewhere, where peaceful protestors are getting killed like shooting gallery targets? It seems the difference is that in Libya, the protestors responded by picking up guns and turning a violent crackdown into a civil war. The message appears to be that this behavior will get you an airforce. But stick to nonviolence and well, good luck with getting shot.

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, April 27, 2011 7:20 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is such a false set-up
the reason they picked up guns & didnt stick with nonviolence is because they would be beaten/killed. how effective do you see nonviolence being in libya exactly

hoping we compare it to the civil rights movement soon

I'm not saying that amping up resistance into a civil war was the wrong move. I don't know. But yeah you're right, before that happened, I guess the nonviolent resistance was about as effective as it is in Syria right now. It made the whole world sit up and pay attention. It discredited Gaddafi (to the extent that there was any more discrediting to be had with him; more meaningfully it thoroughly discredited the rehabilitated image that Gaddafi's son had been meticulously pushing for years). It was doing a lot. Would it have toppled Gaddafi on its own? Not fucking likely.

So I guess my question is, what if Syrians managed to cobble together a rebel army? What if they held some towns, started ambushing Syrian army troops? I imagine the US would find a reason or two not to prevent the inevitable slaughter that would ensue.

(For the reasons posted above by Shakey and history mayne)

Comes back to the gap between what the US / UN would like to do and what they can do in practice. The moral case for action would still be there but it would be overridden by the threat of sparking a massive conflagration in the region.

it's funny that rabid interventionists never seem to bring up any historical example other than WW2 -- i mean, you'd think if it were inherently such a great idea, you'd have loads and loads of examples of it working out just fine other than a war that wasn't even an "intervention" to begin with.

It's pretty fucked for Italy to now be taking the lead in bombing fuck out of things in Libya. Well played, NATO, well played.

never seem to bring up any historical example other than WW2

Bosnia's been referenced several times on this very thread. Rwanda is probably a case where intervention should have happened but didn't. But yeah inalienable human rights and the idea that genocide is wrong are pretty much a 20th century ideas.

Did we or did we not agree itt that "genocide" is not applicable to the Libyan situation, speculative or otherwise?

yes, but it is such a tempting argument, because it makes a moral morass look much more like a moral imperative.

who is applying genocide to this situation

lol @ aimless being an utter hypocrit about using misleading language to imply the obvious rightness of his position

i do wish everyone itt would stop acting like the answer is OBVIOUSLY the one they agree with.

i think its important that we keep discussing this shit obv -- it could turn out to have been a terrible idea. but its not super obvious in either direction right now that this is the wrong thing to do so stop acting like its elementary

xp The British intervention in Sierra Leone is generally thought to have been justifiable and effective, the same is often said about the Indian intervention in the civil war in Pakistan. There are a couple of other examples that stand up reasonably well.

There's no right or wrong answer as the cases are always different. Liberal intervention can be used as a cloak for darker aims (as with some of the later justification of Iraq) and even where there's a case on paper it doesn't mean that the method of intervention (aerial bombing of Serb cities) is moral. Libya should be discussed on its own merits.

whats weird about the anti-intervention in all cases thing to me is that its bassline understanding of human rights is weirdly nationalistic -- we dont want this blood on OUR hands -- let it be in gaddaffis. even if theres more of it

Agreed. There's a legitimate question as to whether states should act on their own to secure similar ends but the idea that what goes on within the borders of a nation is their own business to resolve in all cases looks, to me, like an abrogation of the post-1945 idea of the international community having responsibilities not just to member nations but to the cause of human dignity. I can see why people might be sceptical after Afghanistan and Iraq, and the countless occasions when the UN and NATO have failed to step up the plate properly, but the underlying principle that human rights don't stop at international borders is about as sound as any concept of the modern era.

bassline understanding:

http://www.notreble.com/buzz/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/jaco-pastorius.jpg

lol

Tracer, Italy's not taking the lead-

Italian fighter jets will soon join the ongoing NATO-led airstrikes on military targets in Libya, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi announced following a phone conversation with US President Barack Obama.

.....
"Italy has decided to increase the operative flexibility of its planes by means of aimed actions against specific military targets belonging to Qadhafi's regime with the goal of defending the Libyan civil population," the statement added.

Italy had earlier refused to join the NATO-led airstrikes against Libyan military targets, citing its four decade-long colonial rule over the north African country. So far, the involvement of Italian warships and military aircraft in the ongoing NATO-led military mission in Libya has been limited to refueling and other support operations. Italy has also made several of its airbases available to the mission.

http://www.rttnews.com/Content/GeneralNews.aspx?Id=1605654&SM=1

Juan Cole:

For those who keep asking why there should be an international intervention in Libya but not in Syria, here is one answer: Russia and China have blocked an attempt to have the United Nations Security Council from making any statement at all about the political repression in Syria, which has left an estimated 350-450 persons dead, most of them protesters rather than police or troops.

Moreover, Lebanon also opposed having a statement made, and no Arab country approached the UNSC to do something about Syria.

Russia argued that the situation in Syria is purely domestic and does not threaten international order.

France did lead a charge to get the UNSC to take a strong stand against the use of military means to repress dissent in Syria, but it was blocked. I don’t see how this disparity in the treatment of the two countries can be laid at the feet of “Western hypcrisy.” Surely if anything it is “Eurasian hypocrisy,” insofar as Russia and China declined to stop the condemnation of Libya or the call for a no-fly zone, but they have stopped so much as a slap on the wrist for Syria.

Of course, as bad as the situation in Syria is, it isn’t so far comparable to Libya, where the loss of life is in the thousands, not hundreds, and 30 tanks were lined up to fire on non-combatant crowds demonstrating in downtown Zawiya and Misrata.

The Baath regime’s crackdown in Deraa has in any case provoked the resignations of 200 members of the ruling Baath Party, most of them living in or near Deraa. Resigning from the authoritarian ruling party in protest was unheard of until this week.

This Aljazeera English report says that soldiers, armor and snipers are now everywhere in the southern city of Deraa, which has been invaded. There have also been defections from the officer corps to the dissenters, as in Deraa.

http://www.juancole.com/2011/04/russia-china-block-condemnation-of-syria-as-200-baathists-resign.html

British Brigadier Rob Weighill, director of NATO operations in Libya, said NATO warships stopped pro-Gadhafi forces on Friday from laying water mines in Misrata's harbour.

"Our ships intercepted the small boats that were laying them and we are disposing the mines that we found," Weighill told reporters via videoconference from his headquarters in Naples, Italy.

"It again shows his complete disregard for international law and his willingness to attack humanitarian delivery efforts," he said.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Battle+rages+Misrata+rebels+hold+Libya+border+post/4697838/story.html

So much fighting going on in Misrata

Gotta say, that shitheel has no more respect for international law than Henry Kissinger did. Which is saying a mouthful and none of it meant to be good.

Gadhafi or Brigadier Weighill?

The irony in all of this is that it's pretty obvious that the NATO partners all think Gadhafi is illegitimate and it would suit them just fine if he were gone. The Chinese don't care, nor do the Russians; they just don't want to look like heartless bastards so they went along with the 'protecting the civilians' charade. The reason that ppl on the right in the US don't care about the UN is because they think we're the one country that doesn't have to whereas China, Russia, the UK, France, Italy, they all know that their world is better w/the UN than w/o it, so they want some kind of fig leaf to cover what is clearly foreign aggression against the recognized regime and also, somewhat more murkily, real aid to both innocent civilians and those who seek the freedom of their country from the almost 40 years of this man's tyranny. As I said some time ago, this looks likely to split Cyrenaica from Tripolitania and the Fezzan and I can't see that as an enduring acceptable option, either. I just wish he would walk into someone's bullet.

The Chinese and Russians are against even investigations of Syria, but they've been quieter re Libya.

Latest News:

NATO has rejected an offer from Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi for negotiations to end the conflict in Libya. A NATO official said that NATO operations will go on as long as civilians in Libya are threatened.

Witnesses in the besieged western Libyan port city of Misrata say that forces loyal to Colonel Gadhafi shelled the city indiscriminately, once again Saturday, causing numerous casualties. The attacks came just hours after the embattled Libyan leader demanded that rebels in the city surrender, and urged NATO to accept a ceasefire and to begin peace negotiations.

NATO rejected the offer saying it wanted to see threats to civilians in Libya end.

Colonel Gadhafi made his demands during a rambling speech on Libyan TV early Saturday which lasted close to an hour and a half.

A Nato air strike in Tripoli has killed the youngest son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, a Libyan government spokesman has said.

Saif al-Arab Gaddafi, 29, was killed along with three of Muammar Gaddafi's grandsons, according to reports.

The Libyan leader was in the building at the time of the strike, but was unharmed. Several of Gaddafi's friends and relatives were wounded.

Expected this kind of thing sooner to be honest.

what the fuck is up with this "kill their sons" thing? was this a thing in Vietnam (I don't think Ho Chi Minh had children -- did he?) or I don't know where the hell else but fuck this is the 2nd time in 10 years I've thought "it is fucking gruesome to be hearing about 'the sons of the despot we've decided to oust have been killed'"

Nato is now denying it, and saying Quaddaffi made it up. Weird.

I think if I did critical theory I'd do something about how this concept is kinda up on some Rage of Achilles weirdness

is it that weird? it's not like we're precision bombing his genetic legacy out of existence, just one of lots of grizzly messes.

The Guardian:

Gaddafi's forces have bombarded Misrata with missiles and tank fire, preventing ships carrying humanitarian aid from entering the port for a fourth straight day.

The sustained attacks on the port are causing deep concern in the city, which has been surrounded by Gaddafi's troops on land for more than two months. Food, medical supplies and other aid can only be delivered through the harbour, while migrant workers and casualties can only be evacuated by boat.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan Tuesday called for embattled Libyan President Moammar Gadhafi to step down ...

Several thousand people attended the funeral in Tripoli today of Qaddafi’s son, Saif al-Arab, 29, and three of his grandchildren killed in an April 30 NATO airstrike on the leader’s Bab al-Aziziya compound, the Associated Press reported. Anti-aircraft fire thundered in the background while mourners flashed victory signs and chanted for revenge, the AP said.

A Libya revolution blog

http://www.libyafeb17.com/

Ha, like me it links to lots of articles

here's a good one that's all original, written by a libyan

http://revolutionology.wordpress.com/

The Gaddafi regime committed war crimes against Libyan pro-democracy demonstrations, opening fire "systematically" on peaceful protesters, according to a report issued by the prosecutor for the International Criminal Court (ICC), who will seek arrest warrants against Muammar Gaddafi and two other senior members of his regime later this month.

If the judges grant his request, the question will be who should carry out the arrests. Moreno-Ocampo will say that if the Libyan government fails to act, the security council itself "should evaluate" how to do it. It is unclear whether Russia or China would veto the authorisation of Nato to carry out the arrests. That would most likely involve sending troops into Tripoli.

Have to assume this is coincidental (?) but authorisation to send in troops has been what many Nato members have been looking for since it became clear the rebels weren't up to winning even with air support. Convenient, like.

Hundreds of thousands have fled the violence. The exodus statistics compiled by the United Nations contain all categories of Libyan migrants. UN High Commissioner for Refugees Antonio Guterres on Tuesday called on Western nations to help, with the agency saying 686,422 had left Libya as of May 4, mostly for Egypt and Tunisia.

God forbid Europe allow any refugees to come there

The United States said Thursday that it would try to release some of the more than $30 billion in assets seized from Libya's leader, Moammar Khadafy, as international officials said they would create a fund to give money directly to the Libyan rebels.

And for the first time, Qatar put the question of supplying arms to the rebels on the table, but no agreement was reached

Muamar, The Man Who Would Not Die When the World Told Him To.

And on Saturday, the Gaddafi regime unleashed a salvo of ground-to-ground Grad rockets on towns in Libya's western mountains near the border with Tunisia as it bombed Misrata's fuel depots.

At least nine rebels were killed and 50 wounded in fierce clashes in the northwestern mountain town of Zintan as Gaddafi forces pressed the insurgents on several fronts.

A barrage of shells also struck Wazin, a western mountain town near the border with Tunisia, forcing thousands to flee, while loyalist fighters also attacked the southern oasis towns of Ojla and Jalo, which neighbour oil facilities.

The day before, Gaddafi's forces dropped mines into Misrata's harbour using small helicopters bearing the Red Cross and Red Crescent emblems, the rebels said.

Amnesty International's senior adviser Donatella Rovera lashed out at the Gaddafi regime, saying the mines do not "distinguish between civilian and military vehicles."

"Such systematic targeting of Misrata's only conduit for humanitarian supplies and for the evacuation of critically ill and wounded patients is nothing short of collective punishment against the city's population," she said.

What I think is that this is going to be long and hard.”

That has proved even more true in Libya, where Mr. Obama reluctantly threw his support behind a NATO-led bombing campaign that has bogged down. Libya has become a major preoccupation for him, necessitating daily meetings, in which officials said he was being briefed on the targets for airstrikes and on diplomatic efforts to pry Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi from power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/12/us/politics/12prexy.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha22

They keep missing him--

TRIPOLI (Reuters) - NATO air strikes hit Muammar Gaddafi's compound on Thursday, hours after the Libyan leader was shown on television for the first time since another aerial attack killed his son nearly two weeks ago.

"I tell the cowardly crusader (NATO) that I live in a place they cannot reach and where you cannot kill me," said the voice, which sounded like Gaddafi's

cowardly crusader

Hmmm, maybe the rebels can't sell oil themselves:

What does seem likely, more than a dozen shipping and sanctions experts have told Reuters, is that the tanker's expensive cargo has been caught in a legal and political limbo created by international sanctions on Libya. Western governments seem happy for the rebels to sell their oil, and a few western companies may even be ready to buy it and ship it out. But the sanctions, which never anticipated the emergence of two Libyas, make that a dangerous gamble.

The ship's fate illustrates the often blunt nature of sanctions regimes. Diplomats and international legal experts who design sanctions often talk about making them "smart" or "targeted," and say they can be used to hurt governments without hitting citizens. But in the case of a country divided, sorting friend from enemy can be next to impossible.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/16/us-libya-rebels-ship-idUSTRE74F45U20110516