well also wanted to point out that all of us city ppl are pathetic
― I just like… I just have to say… (Starts crying) (DJP), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:38 (thirteen years ago) link
My current yard is occupied less by fescue and more by a wide array of native plants that have just sort of taken over. I like it visually, but it's not much fun to walk around on barefoot.
― Land of Rap and Homies (kkvgz), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:38 (thirteen years ago) link
ya lol glad laurel is doing the dirty work for me
I see lots of bbqs in brooklyn and queens, maybe they aren't having as much fun cause they don't see grass (unless they're in one of the hundreds of parks in nyc)
― iatee, Monday, 25 April 2011 14:38 (thirteen years ago) link
You can have a bbq in like 50 square feet
you cannot play frisbee afterwards in that much space that's for damn sure.
― Land of Rap and Homies (kkvgz), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:39 (thirteen years ago) link
you can also have sex in a sleeping bag but it isn't always comfortable
― I just like… I just have to say… (Starts crying) (DJP), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Sorry, I might be snappish today, I'm tired and really really sore and stiff from going indoor climbing two weeks in a row. Cannot lift arms, or spirits.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:40 (thirteen years ago) link
I just wish we could manage to debate this without sending the condescension levels into the red.
― 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:42 (thirteen years ago) link
Oh boo hoo, some compromises against exactly what you want to do as a totally free agent in your own fiefdom might be compromised. God.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:43 (thirteen years ago) link
Sorry, is that level too high for you?
I really think, probably wrongly, that acreages that are actually rural are probably much better environmentally and economically than low-density suburbs. You're not putting a tax drain on the city, you rely on the county rather than the city for road work/services which is marginally more tax efficient, and you're probably using a septic tank and have the option to use well water for watering your plants.
Of course, my parents kind of made the green aspect of it backfire by manicuring a four acre lawn when they lived outside the city, but they also had about eighty trees.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 14:45 (thirteen years ago) link
Wow, you were quick to take that personally Laurel.
(xpost)
― 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:45 (thirteen years ago) link
Nah, I was already finishing my typing previous post when yours came up, I didn't want to waste a good snark.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:46 (thirteen years ago) link
this is where you start to land in hot water imo/fyi - there's a difference between a bbq on the roof/in an NYC park and one where you can enjoy both privacy & the feeling of space. I know that that's selfish, to use a term you use upthread - and I think that's a fair criticism; but I also don't think you really speak much to what that selfishness means, what values people are also expressing when they like a family bbq. I get that, for you, solitude/privacy/space/quiet are either mystifying concepts/values or of so little importance that it's easy to table them. But understand that your values, your preferences, while both probably practical & reasonable, are fraught with the same perils that all personal values are.
Like for example: I'm a vegetarian. I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the world would be a much, much better place if everybody else was, too. (Not if it happened overnight. That would pose huge problems. Even if everybody went veg in a year, it'd have some devastating effects on economies. But since that's never going to happen, nor anything like it, it's not really even a point worth considering.) But I try not to frame things in that way, because slow learning ua learned after an extended bout of evangelism that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:47 (thirteen years ago) link
I wasn't trying to take sides, this is a complicated issue with a lot of different things to take into account and I hate it when we (as a whole here) get on this whole "well, your way is just WRONG". Because, there are lots of other considerations here, because none of us live in any kind of utopia.
― 'what are you, the Hymen Protection League of America?' (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:48 (thirteen years ago) link
btw laurel I am not mad or nothing you can zing me any time, you city-loving exhaust-breather you
― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:48 (thirteen years ago) link
get that, for you, solitude/privacy/space/quiet are either mystifying concepts/values or of so little importance that it's easy to table them.
It's more that people have been taught to want these things, in certain ways, and to believe that having them is "making it" -- and this entire 10 months-worth of thread has been an attempt to talk about what grew these values and how they are not natural or organic or inevitable in human society. Not ALL privacy or tranquility, OBVIOUSLY, but in the amounts that many people/Americans/some ilxors desire in order to feel "good" about their circumstances.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:50 (thirteen years ago) link
otm
― iatee, Monday, 25 April 2011 14:51 (thirteen years ago) link
See, aero, you're just a victim of false consciousness. If you'll just report to your nearest re-education camp we can cure you of all those icky values and feelings right quick.
― Paul McCartney and Whigs (Phil D.), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:53 (thirteen years ago) link
Yeah, I don't hate on people who want to shuffle their few meager possessions from cramped little box to cramped little box, each with it's unique neighborly thumps and smells and limited views for the rest of their lives until they die. Commies.
― Land of Rap and Homies (kkvgz), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:53 (thirteen years ago) link
It's more that people have been taught to want these things, in certain ways,
"in certain ways" is true - the notion that people would naturally be more high-density seems unsupported by immediate evidence to my mind
― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:55 (thirteen years ago) link
There are cultural factors that make us look at people in modest/small residences on ecologically responsible plots of land who live within their means and are mindful about resources, and NOT say, "These people have figured out how to live, I want to be like them someday."
No. Having more, having bigger, having space and quiet and land and basically being able to go to your castle and feel like other people don't exist, this did not become a societal goal by accident.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:56 (thirteen years ago) link
"naturally" is kind of a funny word there, that helps to sidestep the important point that the US government subsidizes unsustainable development in a major way
xp
― ban drake (the rapper) (max), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:57 (thirteen years ago) link
I mean I'm with you in the deep sense on this, politically - here are some other things people have been taught to want, in certain ways:
clotheshot waterchocolatebaconthe internet
you know?
― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:57 (thirteen years ago) link
Sorry, I should back up for a sec: people are WELCOME to have all the space and quiet and land and trees they want, there's plenty of it. But they'll also have to live in a rural(ish) area and deal with the consequences of that.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 14:59 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm pretty sure I would have found bacon even if Mom hadn't cooked some for me.
― My mom is all about capital gains tax butthurtedness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:01 (thirteen years ago) link
Bacon isn't consequence-free either, last time I checked my waistline/cholesterol/whatever. ;_;
It's just like somehow we accept that you have to pay for internet, bacon, silky clothes that are nicer to wear, etc, but we don't think that about suburban life???
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:01 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm pretty sure being really high-density actually makes people go nuts, but that's me.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link
You city people pay for bacon? In the 'burbs we just
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_de4hwGSX9H4/SxM7miZovbI/AAAAAAAAAAM/SeSYB5x3D8A/s1600/push_button_receive_bacon_enjoy_bacon.jpg
― Paul McCartney and Whigs (Phil D.), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:07 (thirteen years ago) link
who are you even talking to here, you incredibly crazy person
― I just like… I just have to say… (Starts crying) (DJP), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:14 (thirteen years ago) link
INDOOR CLIMBING
case solved
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 15:15 (thirteen years ago) link
Oh that was for kkvgz and his "you can't play frisbee after your bbq if you don't have a big yard all to yourself" sob story.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:15 (thirteen years ago) link
haha okay, I thought my sleeping bag joke massively offended you!
― I just like… I just have to say… (Starts crying) (DJP), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:16 (thirteen years ago) link
That would be crazy!
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:17 (thirteen years ago) link
apologies all around, let us hug in our apartments/condos
― I just like… I just have to say… (Starts crying) (DJP), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:18 (thirteen years ago) link
True lols at "enjoy bacon" -- if the future is one of those dispensing devices in every home, where do I join?
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:18 (thirteen years ago) link
I can't stand bacon, it stinks up the house. If you live in the city, all your neighbors have to smell it. And believe me, you'll probably get a call from your landlord. On the other hand ethnic food cooking can put an entire building at ease.
― Castle Law! (u s steel), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:22 (thirteen years ago) link
It's true, I have a friend who used to live right above an Indian couple and he never had to worry about anyone smelling his copious marijuana consumption, such was the overwhelmingness of the curry odor.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 15:24 (thirteen years ago) link
It's true. I made some yesterday in the oven and the apartment smelled like a pork belly for hours, even with 10,000 candles lit.
― My mom is all about capital gains tax butthurtedness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:24 (thirteen years ago) link
was your friend's name Jesus because it sounds like he lived in paradise
― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:24 (thirteen years ago) link
Can I tell the story about how much CS Lewis hated onions and garlic, because these were the scents of foreign, non-English cooking??? And he made the Calormenes smell like these things, in his books, and used it to make them seem gross to his readers. Backfired, imo.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:25 (thirteen years ago) link
It was actually ames, iowa. heh.
― mh, Monday, 25 April 2011 15:25 (thirteen years ago) link
Can I tell the story about how much CS Lewis hated onions and garlic, because these were the scents of foreign, non-English cooking??? And he made the Calormenes smell like these things, in his books, and used it to make them seem gross to his readers
The Calormenes also dedicated bad poetry to a bird god named Tash.
― My mom is all about capital gains tax butthurtedness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:26 (thirteen years ago) link
I live in the suburbs with a lot of creaky frame houses. People panic every time a neighbor barbecues. Are those ribs cooking or is someone's house on fire?
― Castle Law! (u s steel), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:28 (thirteen years ago) link
suburbanites = people who can't tell the smell of burning wood from the smell of grilling flesh
― the wages of sin is about tree fiddy (WmC), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:32 (thirteen years ago) link
fuck manicured lawns imo stop shaving grow yr bush its totally hot
i just imagined UA getting all pretty ricky on his lawn
― goole, Monday, 25 April 2011 15:34 (thirteen years ago) link
and... scene
― I just like… I just have to say… (Starts crying) (DJP), Monday, 25 April 2011 15:35 (thirteen years ago) link
Sorry, I should back up for a sec: people are WELCOME to have all the space and quiet and land and trees they want, there's plenty of it. But they'll also have to live in a rural(ish) area and deal with the consequences of that. --Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel)
alt: they'll be willing to pay for the effects of their lifestyle. my argument had never been that we shouldn't allow suburbs or that people who want to live in them are evil, just that they shouldn't be artificially cheap. I'm for private jets too - I just think you should have to pay about a bazillion dollars* to own one.
*est 2011 figures
urbanites should have to pay more for their consumption too! but there's some bizarre incentives in a world where it's more expensive to *not* own a car and to live in a small space in a walkable city than to own a mini-castle and a large truck.
― iatee, Monday, 25 April 2011 16:45 (thirteen years ago) link
― Land of Rap and Homies (kkvgz), Monday, April 25, 2011 2:53 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
just fyi not all cities are like new york either.
― geeks, dweebs, nerds & lames (D-40), Monday, 25 April 2011 17:18 (thirteen years ago) link
i like how suburban & rural can be conflated any time it seems convenient in this debate, as if ppl living in mcmansions in outer burbs are the ones farming
heres the thing that I think is like, actually we kinda should be condescending because its something people do CHOOSE to be aware of: moving into those kinds of homes is bad in any number of ways & it is a choice, and you dont have to choose to value those things, and kids can grow up to be perfectly healthy & happy in urban areas & still get to see the sun.
The real 'solution,' yes, is govt-originated structural change. But i kinda have no problem being condescending to ppl who think that a house with a big lawn and a driveway is a basic human right. admittedly i grew up in an apartment & shared a room w/ my brother until i moved out of my mom's so i might be biased about my oh-so-disadvantaged lifestyle
― geeks, dweebs, nerds & lames (D-40), Monday, 25 April 2011 17:23 (thirteen years ago) link
aero can play captain-save-a-flyover country but thats not really what we're talking about here. it isnt just brooklyn hipsters that live in urban areas & are perfectly happy with their lifestyles.
― geeks, dweebs, nerds & lames (D-40), Monday, 25 April 2011 17:24 (thirteen years ago) link