To what degree will you support musicians who (openly, possibly or jokingly) include racist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted messages in their music, or who privately hold such beliefs?

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Seriously? is it really your position that everybody was a noxious antisemite? it's demonstrably untrue, if so.

I wasn't particularly clear but I'm saying that we're so far removed, in time and (what I'm emphasising here) in mind. It's easy to pass the huge differences in modes of thought between now and then, given the widespread default non-thought surrounding what it means to be human today.

historyyy (prettylikealaindelon), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

>>Liszt, who was one of the few true bros of the 19c.

think there's a bunch of 19th-century cuckolded husbands who might differ with you on this score

Love is NEVER wrong, aero, come now.

One of the worst things Wagner did to Liszt was turn FL's daughter Cosima into an ideological clone of himself, one who DID live long enough to consort with Nazis...

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

whole movie is hilar, one of Russell's best imho

xp

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

prettylike: ah, I get you - we are coming at reality from deeply diff. philosophical standpoints in that case - I really think the present day vastly overstates the depths of its differences with the past - to the point where I consider the deepest differences one can name largely cosmetic, and that historians won't say "at this or that point in the late 20th century" (or whatever point one assigns) "some break occurred or finished occurring which drove a rift between the mindsets of preceding ages and the ones that followed" - I think western culture is basically of a comprehensible, apprehendable piece

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

I purchased an Arghoslent CD before. They are racist, redneck morons but the CD just kills.

Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've heard rumors those guys are just taking the piss but idk. "Hornets of the Pogrom" as a title sounds like a Christopher Guest take on nsbm for sure though

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah but I mean did you ever read any crucial youth interviews? kinda smell misanthrophic art-prank. I don't listen to them just in case don't get me wrong but I think they might be kinda Mentors-level trolling

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm sorry, I can't stop lolling at their songtitles (Incorrigble Bigotry!)

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Speaking of Liszt, going to this on Wednesday, pretty awesome:

CIM ORCHESTRA with LESLIE HOWARD
(Concert Series)

Presented in collaboration with Cuyahoga Community College
LESLIE HOWARD, piano and conductor, guest artist
CIM ORCHESTRA
CARL TOPILOW, conductor

In honor of the 2011 bicentennial of composer Franz Liszt’s birth,
Leslie Howard and the CIM Orchestra will present world premieres
of newly discovered Liszt manuscripts.
Pre-concert talk begins at 7:00 pm.

Anti-mist K-Lo (Phil D.), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Awesome! Was just listening to a volume of Howard's complete Liszt series this morning.

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost The interviewer's italicised commentary is creepier than the band's answers.

I like this bit: "Even though we deal with taboo topics, none are expressed or dealt with in a disrespectful or irresponsible manner."

Says the band with members called Holocausto and Pogrom. I don't think they're just trolling though.

Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

Shall we discuss tomorrow whether rap can be considered music, or merely talking over someone else's music?
― Siegbran, maandag 21 maart 2011 23:44 (Yesterday) Bookmark

...and it actually happens too.

Siegbran, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

?

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 20:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

Siegban

pc-ness pump (lpz), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's my position that what the Nazis saw in these tropes and what Wagner meant by them are one and the same.

Utter bullshit. Every generation re-invents the meaning and uses of art and thought. Wagner's nationalism should be seen in the context of the post-Enlightenment reaction to universals (mostly as posited by the French) and expressing itself in 19th century romanticism and nationalism; perhaps even defensible in some kind of Burkean way if conducted with humility and circumspection. I don't recall Wagner, whatever one thinks of his music, as ever calling for genocide however anti-semitic he may have been and German anti-semitism has pretty deep and complicated roots, ones that were not unknown throught all Christendom, tbf.

exécutés avec l’insolence accoutumée du (Michael White), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't think Wagner has to have called for genocide in order to put his nationalistic anti-Semitism in the same lineage as what the Nazis ended up doing, otherwise you are making an argument that veers perilously close to the "but he didn't dress up like a Klan member" line of defense against accusations of racial insensitivity.

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

Michael White, "I don't recall him as ever calling for genocide ergo he's not in the exact lineage of national socialism" is ridiculous. Most member of the fuckin' SS never "called for genocide" either - you wanna excuse them too? Does a guy gotta get "I'm a nazi" tatted on his face before he's actually a nazi, or can we look at his ideology and call it what it is?

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

well hold on there, chronologically speaking it was impossible for Wagner to be a Nazi, I will fully back up that argument 100%

acting like Wagner's shit was completely divorced from what inspired Hitler seems... completely wrong tho

ancient, but very sexy (DJP), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

chronologically speaking it was impossible for Wagner to be a Nazi, I will fully back up that argument 100%
^^^yes

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Pretty sure genocide wasn't a Nazi policy in '33.

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, but looking back, I find something offensive in almost every person in the past. Is that reason to refuse to engage with their work, especially music? I am not fond of Xtianity on the whole, should I throw out my Bach? Porgy and Bess can make me uncomfortable at times. Should I toss it and all of Gershwin?

"but he didn't dress up like a Klan member"

It doesn't matter what the Klan member wears, of course, but the quality of his/her music isn't affected either way, necessarily. Do we know the sculptor of the Venus de Milo's politics? Do we care? The mosaicist from Pompeii, was he racist against Carthaginians or Greeks or Germans? Does Ming dynast vase imply a world view that anyone not from the Middle Kingdom inferior? I dunno and I don't care.

My answer to the original question is that very often offensive people let their offensiveness ruin or marr their art. Inasmush as they don't and their work is good, I'll enjoy it at whatever level I enjoy it.

exécutés avec l’insolence accoutumée du (Michael White), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

well hold on there, chronologically speaking it was impossible for Wagner to be a Nazi, I will fully back up that argument 100%

Also while his racial views are well matched to theirs, the rest of his political thinking is not. He was on the left, not the right.

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp

this is the point of the thread tho! I don't think anybody's called for a background check on every artist they get into, but we're talking about the issues involved in enjoying the art of somebody who you know to be a scumbag, and by scumbag we can narrow it down to something like "actively endorsing hatred of a societal group thru their art". I pretty much fall into the "if I like the art enough I'll let anything slide" camp but I'm not sure that it's a good camp or a personally justifiable one.

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't know how helpful Left and Right are (at all really but especially with regard to Wanger and Nazis. Afaik Wanger was never a Socialist in any meaningful sense, whereas the early Nazi party did have several ranking members who wanted the party to take its Socialism seriously.

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

My answer to the original question is that very often offensive people let their offensiveness ruin or marr their art. Inasmush as they don't and their work is good, I'll enjoy it at whatever level I enjoy it.

^^^a gentleman and a scholar, folks

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

Most member of the fuckin' SS never "called for genocide" either - you wanna excuse them too? Does a guy gotta get "I'm a nazi" tatted on his face before he's actually a nazi, or can we look at his ideology and call it what it is?

Listen, most of the Germans under the gangster Nazi regime were desperate sheep or opportunists; morally irresponsible, reckless even. (I'm reading a bio of the Warburgs and the amount of sheer confusion even amongst the German Jewish community as to what to make of the Nazis in the early 30's is heart-rendingly sad). The Nazis were pretty clear about ridding germany of Jews and their 'nefarious' influence.

Was Wagner an anti-semite? Yes. Had there been no Wagner, could you still have ended up with Hitlers and Goebbels and Rosenbergs and Luegers? Very probably.

exécutés avec l’insolence accoutumée du (Michael White), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 21:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost but Wanger was active in the mid-century revolutionary movement and had to flee the country for fear of arrest, which is kind of actively left, no?

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think that when people are dyed in the wool visceral racist type people, they wont have what it takes to create mindblowing music. Maybe I am naive. But barring Siegfrieds Funeral March, everything else Wagner did was wank. People who become obcessed with racial bullshit aint ever gonna create great music. The best music has always come from people who are lost to the music.

Damo Suzuki's Parrot, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Left in the sense of being anti-monarchist and wanting a united, democratic Germany.

exécutés avec l’insolence accoutumée du (Michael White), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

I should admit here that I prefer Wagner's music w/o vocals, generally so I am a bit of a philistine on the subject.

exécutés avec l’insolence accoutumée du (Michael White), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think that when people are dyed in the wool visceral racist type people, they wont have what it takes to create mindblowing music. Maybe I am naive. But barring Siegfrieds Funeral March, everything else Wagner did was wank. People who become obcessed with racial bullshit aint ever gonna create great music. The best music has always come from people who are lost to the music.

Don't believe any of this, sorry.

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

I should admit here that I prefer Wagner's music w/o vocals, generally so I am a bit of a philistine on the subject.

This box set is your friend:

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Tristan-Parsifal-Orchestral-Adventures/dp/B0043VLWXQ/ref=sr_shvl_album_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1300832866&sr=301-2

Maazel's "Ring Without Words" concoction hits all the good bits but is too breathless presto-change-o; the standard orchestral chunks miss too much good music. I recommend the above for the vocal-allergic.

return, descender (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

I pretty much fall into the "if I like the art enough I'll let anything slide" camp but I'm not sure that it's a good camp or a personally justifiable one.

this is generally me too actually, but I don't think this principle is one worth defending - think more it's one to be overcome personally, as it places one's own pleasure above all - to take things over to metal, I care more about the friends who'd think "aerosmith you're better than that" if they found out I was listening to nazi metal & diggin' it than I do about the pleasure I might take from said metal, and that's actually a functioning principle for me (not a "what if my friends found out principle" since as been discussed elsewhere I don't have irl friends): would I want people to know I take pleasure in racist music by racists? No; I'd be ashamed; so I avoid Wagner. I don't argue that others should not listen to him, but when somebody says "I just look past the racism," I feel kinda like "it's a bourgeois privilege to be able to overlook racism."

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

and yes I am keenly and painfully aware that both Wagner is responsible for some of the most achingly gorgeous melodies in the history of music.

five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink


...and it actually happens too.
― Siegbran, dinsdag 22 maart 2011 20:58 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
?
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), dinsdag 22 maart 2011 20:59 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Siegban
― pc-ness pump (lpz), dinsdag 22 maart 2011 21:17 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

OK I'll spell it out: I expected this thread to derail into rediculousness, and lo and behold, it does. With Geir barging in this really is Usenet '96 all over again.

Siegbran, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

Geir is hardly indicative of the ridiculousness tbh

ilxor you've listened to one odd future album once (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is generally me too actually, but I don't think this principle is one worth defending - think more it's one to be overcome personally, as it places one's own pleasure above all

OTM. I'm in the same spot.

Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Geirbomb was more of a blip, we're onto Wagner now dontchaknow

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

"it's a bourgeois privilege to be able to overlook racism."

pretty sure the proletariat overlooks racism in music all the time, dunno where yr coming from with this

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost Richard Wagner, not Robert Wagner, in case you get the two confused

VegemiteGrrl, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

(not a "what if my friends found out principle" since as been discussed elsewhere I don't have irl friends)

can't tell if this ^^ is lol or not but anyway my main question is-- aren't you a big darkthrone fan/apologist & aren't they somehow associated w/ "nazi metal" or otherwise a bit questionable? doesn't seem to gel w/ yr statement

ilxor you've listened to one odd future album once (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

went out to dinner the other night and our Mexican waiter was wearing a Burzum shirt ... didn't really know what to think.

David Allah Coal (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

jon, i always wanted to hear the instrumental stuff ever since hearing a piece at school i liked but couldn't remember what it was. Just never took to opera. Gonna see if its on spotify, thanks!

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Dont believe any of this, sorry.

I dont have the energy to defend this idea, but it rings true with a majority of my musical heroes. It rings true in life as well. Sorry I am just nipping out to the pub with this terminally boring cunt who moans about foreigners all night.

Damo Suzuki's Parrot, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is generally me too actually, but I don't think this principle is one worth defending - think more it's one to be overcome personally, as it places one's own pleasure above all -

I can't conceive of any workable principle that this could be replaced with. the other options lead to a) censorship and b) never enjoying anything

xp

Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Aesthetic pleasure is a complex thing tho. It's pleasure, sure, but you're also engaging with a complex of ideas or discourses. I don't think you should avoid those ideas because they're uncomfortable or even sometimes repellent, but I don't think you shd look for "excuses" for the artist either.

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is probably this tenderest tune about beating up foreigners ever:

David Allah Coal (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor

It was followed by their fourth album, Transilvanian Hunger, which was released in February 1994. This was Darkthrone's first album to have just two members, Nocturno Culto and Fenriz. The band would remain a duo from this point onwards. Transilvanian Hunger was characterized by a very "raw" or "low fidelity" recording style and musical simplicity. The album's release caused some controversy: some of its lyrics were written by the infamous Norwegian black metal musician Varg Vikernes, and its booklet contained the phrase "Norsk Arisk Black Metal", which translates into English as "Norwegian Aryan Black Metal".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkthrone#Early_black_metal_years

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

ahhh okay right

ilxor you've listened to one odd future album once (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 22:47 (3 years ago) Permalink


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